*** 4K Player Thread ***

Soldato
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Where does it say they are upscaled ? That link you gave me to that web page is really bad.

The Groundhog 4k Netflix film is meant to be a transfer from the 35mm original which has been discussed before here and on other forums in that the 35mm original has enough detail to be transferred to a 4k digital film.

Also, like GB1 & 2, Groundhog Day had a 4K remaster. So the film negatives were re-scanned at 4K and then a 4K Digital intermediate was made, which is actually a true 4K compared to other films which only have a 2K DI.
 
Soldato
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At the risk of re-posting it

It was an invigorating experience to work on the re-mastering of Groundhog Day with colorist John Dunn at Sony’s Stage 6 Colorworks facility. We were seated at the Baselight at a screen height distance of less than 2x; the clarity and detail from the scanned negative at 4K was staggering. The process of re-mastering this much beloved film was a revelation. John and I were able to extract incredible detail, retiming shots with subtle color and density controls, as well as selecting multiple power windows—generating a level of scene to scene consistency that had not been possible with the limited controls of the photochemical era. Consistency in this film is especially important because of the oft-repeated scenes shot on successive production days in changing light. The richly dense and fine grain Kodak negative clearly contained even more than the 4K data scanned. After an initial runthrough, I asked John to exploit his full digital “toolbox” in his first pass at re-mastering. “This is no sacred cow,” I said.

What does this suggest about a decade of DIs that have been rendered at 2K resolution—and of the filmout negatives struck from those files? Sony is rescanning and remastering many popular titles in their catalog, movies that initially had been exhibited from 2K digital intermediate files, as film prints or as DCPs—but now rescanning from the original camera negatives at 4K resolution. This remastering of the OCN may be viable for films that have been successful enough to warrant such added expense, but what about those films that have not made the cut, films, for the moment at least, shelved because of an indifferent box office— and waiting for a possible redemptive rlate inclusion in the critical canon or as a cult favorite? Citizen Kane was largely forgotten for several decades. Monte Hellman’s Two Lane Blacktop, a film roundly pilloried on its initial release in 1971, recently received a glorious 2 DVD and Blu-Ray release by the Criterion Collection and has just been included in the 2012 National Film Registry.

Unless rescanned, movies mastered with a 2K DI, and a 2K filmout negative, are married to that resolution, even allowing for the evolving technology of uprezing. Will many of us just have to accept that the past decade of our work will be trapped in a rapidly obsolescent 2K format? What more apparent “watermark” of an era of filmmaking can you imagine than a generation of movies marked as substandard?
 
Soldato
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At the risk of re-posting it

Thanks, that was along the lines of what I was trying to recite from memory.

It's a shame many more films haven't been re-scanned at 4K from the film negatives. Likewise with the vast number of Digitally shot movies that have 4-6K worth digitally shot raw data, but only a 2K DI is made, which kinda defeats the purpose...:(
 
Soldato
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Where does it say they are upscaled ? That link you gave me to that web page is really bad.

The Groundhog 4k Netflix film is meant to be a transfer from the 35mm original which has been discussed before here and on other forums in that the 35mm original has enough detail to be transferred to a 4k digital film.

Its quite easy to follow. And im using a mobile . Just bump the choices to tge max and scroll through. Clearly says upscaled
 
Soldato
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Its quite easy to follow. And im using a mobile . Just bump the choices to tge max and scroll through. Clearly says upscaled

The problem is, what is their source for saying it is upscaled?

As far as I can tell it is a website someone has put together themselves and is not directly affiliated with Netflix.

We already know a 4K master exists for GB2 - this is evident from the 4K UHD Blu-ray release. As for Groundhog Day, this was remastered in 4K recently too by Sony, and there is both a HDTV UHD capture and 4K 1080p remastered Blu-ray kicking around which is derived from the 4K master.

I would find it incredibly strange that for both films which have 4K masters, that they would not use those for 4K/UHD streaming and instead upscale them...

Edit:

What’s on Netflix is not endorsed, moderated, owned by or affiliated with Netflix or any of its partners in any capacity. The authors of this site also have no affiliation with Netflix. What's on Netflix is a unofficial fansite for Netflix.
 
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Soldato
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My Chrome doesnt like that website its hideous. Used Edge and it does look like some cheap blog. Still cant see the upscaled bit. Maybe it only says "upscaled" if you are using a Mobile. Or should that be downscaled for the size of the screen ? :p

Oh I've found it now if you go into the 4k HDR list. They have put Groundhog Day (Upscaled) and Ghostbusters 2 (Upscaled) must be upscaled then. :rolleyes:

When you try and send the authors a message this is what you get

We are sorry, but the page you are looking for cannot be found.
You might try searching our site.

Funny how they dont mention it here

https://www.whats-on-netflix.com/united-kingdom/new-releases-on-netflix-uk-3rd-march-2017/

and so moving back onto 4k general topic.........
 
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Soldato
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The problem is, what is their source for saying it is upscaled?

As far as I can tell it is a website someone has put together themselves and is not directly affiliated with Netflix.

We already know a 4K master exists for GB2 - this is evident from the 4K UHD Blu-ray release. As for Groundhog Day, this was remastered in 4K recently too by Sony, and there is both a HDTV UHD capture and 4K 1080p remastered Blu-ray kicking around which is derived from the 4K master.

I would find it incredibly strange that for both films which have 4K masters, that they would not use those for 4K/UHD streaming and instead upscale them...

Edit:

I highly doubt anything on Netflix (or any other streaming service) is actually genuine 4k yet.

They are all doing something in the background to make the bandwidth usage as small as possible

The only way to get a genuine 4k source is to buy the disc and play it locally (or some of the 4k "samples" on Youtube, but I was referring to copyrighted stuff)

Absolutely no point currently having a full 4k source because the infrastructure (let alone probably the netflix servers) wouldnt be able to cope with the thruoughput.

Even the "4k" streams for football (which bring in the majority of revenue for a lot of the streaming services) arent genuine 4k sources as they are relying on living room hardware (either in stb's or in the tv's themselves) to upscale.


Thats even before you consider what little % of Netflix customers are actually currently interested enough in 4k to actually pay for it - which is going to be a very small % of their users (and so why put genuine 4k sources on their servers, and therefore use up a large % of available space and capicity in general ) on a low % of your clientelle.
 
Soldato
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Soldato
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I highly doubt anything on Netflix (or any other streaming service) is actually genuine 4k yet.

it is 4k - 2160p resolution content encoded in hevc at lower ~15Mb/s bit-rates, so it is technically 4k,
yes, not the 100Mb/s you could have on a uhd disk, avfourms equated the netflix 4k quality to watching a 1080p blu-ray
 
Soldato
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I highly doubt anything on Netflix (or any other streaming service) is actually genuine 4k yet.

They are all doing something in the background to make the bandwidth usage as small as possible

The only way to get a genuine 4k source is to buy the disc and play it locally (or some of the 4k "samples" on Youtube, but I was referring to copyrighted stuff)

Absolutely no point currently having a full 4k source because the infrastructure (let alone probably the netflix servers) wouldnt be able to cope with the thruoughput.

Even the "4k" streams for football (which bring in the majority of revenue for a lot of the streaming services) arent genuine 4k sources as they are relying on living room hardware (either in stb's or in the tv's themselves) to upscale.


Thats even before you consider what little % of Netflix customers are actually currently interested enough in 4k to actually pay for it - which is going to be a very small % of their users (and so why put genuine 4k sources on their servers, and therefore use up a large % of available space and capicity in general ) on a low % of your clientelle.

It's most likely crippled bit rates with various compression factors that makes uhd streaming possible. That doesn't mean it isn't coming from a 4K source though, because it most likely is, but there is compression going on to make the streaming achievable for the minimum speed requirement's which they have set for streaming 4K. There might even be a bit of variable bit rating going on too.

Of course, discs are going to have superior bit rates and less compression, as they are not limited to the same bandwidth requirements they have set for streaming in 4K.

In the case of other sources such as football etc, it depends on whether the actual source material is filmed at 4K and whether they are then broadcasting that when they broadcast it, otherwise if it is just at 2K source, then yes, there might be some clever upscaling going on to get it to 4K. But as for the case of Groundhog Day and Ghost busters we know they have 4K masters to source from, and it would be silly to source your video from an older source that was done only in 2K. And if they were the older masters taken from a 2K source, the elements that were remastered such as the colours etc when they did the 4K scan would look noticeably different, and so far I am not seeing that with Groundhog Day and Ghost busters.
 
Soldato
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It's most likely crippled bit rates with various compression factors that makes uhd streaming possible. That doesn't mean it isn't coming from a 4K source though, because it most likely is, but there is compression going on to make the streaming achievable for the minimum speed requirement's which they have set for streaming 4K. There might even be a bit of variable bit rating going on too.
.

If the stream is "crippled" then its pretty irrelevant what the source is as you wont be seeing it on your tv, you will only be seeing the crippled version

Even then its going to be incomparable to the disc, so are we now going to be talking about 4k-lite (ie streaming) vs "full" 4k (ie disc) to be accurate?

720p was considered HD when it first came out, but now it really shouldnt be anything less than 1080p ......

yes, not the 100Mb/s you could have on a uhd disk, avfourms equated the netflix 4k quality to watching a 1080p blu-ray

A "mediocre" blu-ray if I remember correctly - so nothing exactly to write home about.
 
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Soldato
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The limited/crippled bandwidth given to streamed services versus original media has perhaps remained constant ?
so if 4k stream looks like average 1080p blu, 720p nowtv/iplayer looks like 576i/p dvd.
yes, streaming services throttle it down to save money and provide a quality acceptable to the average customer.
If anything, the increased efficiency of hevc/vp9 versus mpeg2 enables more penny saving.
Netflix tech blog suggests nonetheless, that they have some innovative encoding, to preserve detail on parts of images that matter (faces,..)

Lack of competition in UK streaming versus USA maybe ?; with an appropriate DRM mechanism, could a provider, as with TIDAL HD or spotify HIFI, provide a higher quality stream.
Maybe it is also a cycnical strategy to maintain a UHD disk market, if the stream matched the disk, would people still want the physical media (physical CD market in decline)
 
Soldato
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If the stream is "crippled" then its pretty irrelevant what the source is as you wont be seeing it on your tv, you will only be seeing the crippled version

Even then its going to be incomparable to the disc, so are we now going to be talking about 4k-lite (ie streaming) vs "full" 4k (ie disc) to be accurate?

720p was considered HD when it first came out, but now it really shouldnt be anything less than 1080p ......



A "mediocre" blu-ray if I remember correctly - so nothing exactly to write home about.

jpaul summarises it well.

Nobody is saying it is the same 4k as a uhd disc. What I'm saying is, which is the whole point, is that we actually do not know whether Groundhog Day and GB2 is upscaled or not.
 
Soldato
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a relevant 4K remark ?
first 4k utube trailer from here
the UB400 was disappointingly/surprisingly expensive @£299 (hdtvtest partial review too) had expected it to be inside next pack of Rice Krispies, given the new Sony and LG market entrants, and refurb 900's for £350

edit : well maybe not the first - should have checked facts
 
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Caporegime
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the UB400 was disappointingly/surprisingly expensive @£299 (hdtvtest partial review too) had expected it to be inside next pack of Rice Krispies, given the new Sony and LG market entrants, and refurb 900's for £350
Why would anyone bother buying any of the current crop of dedicated 4k players, when an xbox one s can be had brand new for £200? Even if you don't play games, it's £100 cheaper, and if you or your family do then, well, it's a no brainer.

I don't get it.
 
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Why would anyone bother buying any of the current crop of dedicated 4k players, when an xbox one s can be had brand new for £200? Even if you don't play games, it's £100 cheaper, and if you or your family do then, well, it's a no brainer.

I don't get it.

A few reasons to be honest like sound setups is one, Dolby Atmos is coming to Xbox One S or is already out i aren't sure but some people need players that support that now.

Some Xbox One S have/had issues when playing discs. Personally i only a month or 2 ago payed £206 for a Samsung 4k blu ray player with 3 4k movies and i could have gone the Xbox One S route.

But decided not to as i wanted all three 4k blu rays and it would have cost me more.
 
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