4p

[Big.Wayne]

Cheaper for *two* excellent AMD® Athlon™ II X4 than one Intel® Core™ i7

Much has been made of AMD's inability to compete with Intel's fastest processors in the extreme enthusiast market. To be blunt, this is true. Yet while AMD has no ready answer for the Core i7 processor, it's also true that the majority of computer buyers will never need the power a Core i7 processor provides, or justify the cost of such a PC either. Judging by the latest road maps, AMD is focusing much of its efforts on infusing bang into budget-priced processors, so you might want to think twice about building a Core i5 LGA1156 PC right now.

What are you thought's about this? . . . do you think the Intel® Core™ i7 is worth a 100% price premium?

Honestly, I can't put my finger on it but something is bugging me about Intel® lately . . . they seem to be releasing products that do not appeal to me personally which makes me feel a bit left out i.e I seem not to fit into their preconceived idea of the market!

They have some brilliant engineers and all that but I'm not sure if they understand the market? . . . maybe it's me that doesn't the market but I certainly do understand the computer enthusiast as I've been one for years and I also read all your posts and I have a pretty good idea what your like too! . . . do you feel *connected* with Intel atm, are their products hitting the sweetspot for you personally?

This is intended to be a discussion and I am genuinely interested to hear peoples viewpoints . . . My personal thoughts are that I also see a lot of people buying computers that won't offer them good value . . . I know a few users really do benefit but I would wager they are a small majority compared to the users who don't know any better and come to OcUK forums in the hope of getting some good advice for their next builds and walk away with an expensive Nehalem . . .

I would like to think that people will *not* forget two of the basic principles of overclocking . . .

• Bang-For-Buck
• Price/Performance Ratio

I just hope that more people become aware of the huge price premium intel are charging for products that do not empower you as much as you would believe and I hope to see more *enthusiasts* buying into AMD as IMHO they really do understand us better . . .

With a record sales forecast predicted this first quarter I can see why Paul is happy but . . . if you want cheaper Intel® products or design that you feel hits the spot then it's time to start buying AMD® . . . their products are better than you realise!

Paul S. Otellini - President and Chief Executive Officer - Intel® Corporation

 

[Big.Wayne]

This is a complicated issue, however I'll try to keep this coherent. I'm using cpu folding@home as the benchmark for my argument

Hi JonJ678,

I mentioned in the first post there are "a few users who really do benefit but I would wager they are a small majority compared to the users who don't" . . . from what you are saying it would seem you fit into one of these specialized niches. I like folding@home myself and try to contribute to the cause by folding for at least one or two months every year, my contribution is probably quite small compared to yourself or any other folding specialist but every little helps . . .



I admire people that donate their time and money to helping scientific research but it is not my personal primary reason for building and owning a computer and I would *assume* the same for a great majority of other OcUK forum users . . .

I would also add that while your motivations for being a folding@home zealot may be genuine and noble there is always the possibility you *maybe* are using this as Justification? . . . I would have thought someone who is truely passionate about folding enough to buy top end folding kit would also be very vocal about the subject and try to recruit as many people into the folding scene as possible yet I have never heard you speak about PPD before and I have never seen a post from you in the OcUK Distributed Computing Projects subforum . . . this does not mean you are any less a committed folder as you may contribute to another team and don't want to ruffle feathers and you may just feel satisfied that you are doing your bit without bangin on about it every other post! . . . I do wonder though Jon . . is there any chance you have become a folder to justify having £££ expensive kit or did you buy the expensive kit to become a serious folder? . . . are you running multiple nVidia graphics cards for really serious PPD? . . . is folding the be-all-and-end-all of modern computing to you? . . . and is the hardware advice you give to others influenced by this? . . . please take these as genuine questions and I hope no offence is caused, I know lots of people in real life and I know lots of people in the online community but not many of them have even heard of folding@home let alone run it?

Aside from folding and other scientific uses I can see the strength of Nehalem . . . it really is a formula 1 car when used in the right context but I question it's value and positioning in the High-Street!

If Intel® Made Cars . . . the school run could be a lot more interesting albeit a lot more costly £££

 

[Big.Wayne]

Check, check and check Well when it's on anyway

Hey Happy!

I know you are a keen folder having read many of your posts, I am interested to know a little more though . . . Would you consider yourself a competitive folder first and a doer of good deeds second or the other way round . . .

What I am keen to know is do you personally get the same *high* from PPD as say a competitive bencher chasing the 3DMark world record and is the extra expenditure justified because of this? i.e is that one of the things that gives you a kick . . parp parp etc

I've always folded on the side and have never thought of designing and building a computer based around a lust for PPD, having said that I have choosen a nVidia graphics card in the past over an ATI card because I found the nVidia card was just so much better with the GPGPU stuff but that was a secondary decision, the primary reason was to game and in that respect I am happy with either an nVidia or ATI card but the nVidia card just edged it for its better folding capability . . .

Thanks for your feedback, it's always interesting to hear peoples thoughts!

I hadn't realised how much bang for your buck AMD offered these days

Well it sounds like you got the right hardware for the tasks you run but take my word on it that the newer AMD kit is really nice . . . I bought one of their budget Athlon II X3's a few months ago and I'm impressed, really nice product at an incredible price, this is in fact the cheapest processor I have ever bought in my life and I was not expecting too much . . . however my expectations were not only met they were exceeded . . . coming from a 4GHz Dual Core Wolfdale I have not noticed my PC suddenly lagging up, I'm not left wanting in anyway and ended up with about £80 more in my pocket after moving from LGA775 to AM2+

Just a humble triple core @ 3.6GHz air cooled costing less than 25% of the asking price of the cheapest Intel® Core™ i7 . . . terrible value I tell you!

 

[Big.Wayne]

If AMD released a quad core chip that consistently overclocked better than a 920 D0 (happy to be proven wrong here) then I'm sure people would buy it

Hello beh*,

thanks for the feedback!

couple of questions . . . . would you say your primary decision on the hardware you purchase is based on how well they overclock? and who or what are you relying on to give you this information? . . . I assume you are not hand testing all the hardware yourself so are you taking advice from people on these forums or recommendations made from web review sites? (or a combination of both?)

Are you running a specialist set of software/tasks or are you perhaps a competive bencher of some sort? . . . . If I was to send in a team of ninjas to swap out your Intel System Core for an AMD system Core while you slept would you notice the *downgrade* from the way you use a computer and the things you do? . . . if you would can you give me an example, hopefully something that isn't a benchmark of course

I love AMD as much as everyone but until they start making cutting edge processors I'm not going to buy one.

I am under the impression that the latest AMD chips are cutting edge? . . .at least that's my personal perception, admittedly not as fast in some tasks as the latest Intel kit but the AMD stuff is certainly fast enough to blaze through most demanding workloads and then some . . . all this for a very reasonable price! . . . .we should be all over it in these forums as that's what we do I thought? . . . that is take a piece of coal and make it into a Diamond, not take a Diamond and make it into a better Diamond?

Each to their own of course but I hope to see even the most diehard power user picking up a little AMD box to evaluate/dip their tow in . . . sitting side by side with their 100% more expensive hardware I expect most will be suprised at how well the little pocket rocket keeps up!

 

[Big.Wayne]

Big.Wayne I have followed your posts on here quite a bit

Hey Duke!

I have been reading your posts also, it's a two way thing!

I'm not sure where this sudden AMD fan boy bit has come from? Every post is about AMD. Got a new job?

Although it's entirely off-topic it's a fair question although I find it funny you are suspicious and are questioning my motives!

Any advice or opinions I give are entirely my own, made with good intentions and zero financial incentive other than to save money for myself and save money for my forum buddies. I do not know how valid my viewpoint is hence this thread to discuss things more. I am very self analyzing and try to become aware of what makes me tick, why I do things, what motivates me etc and to be honest I have struggled with justifying premium hardware purchases for years but didn't really like to break away from the pack, on the few occasions I did and dabbled in Intel Budget land I found the pickings very poor and I couldn't get my tweaking fix using a cheap Intel board . . .

However now the rules have changed, the newer £60 AMD chipsets are brilliant, all the bells and whistles an enthusiasts would want (PCI-E 2.0 x16, SATA RAID 0/1/10, eSata, DX10.1 IGP, HDMI, etc) and I am left feeling that INTEL have been charging me too much . . . . and the budget CPU's are the same thing, triple/quad cores, virtualization tech, fast IMC, hardware interoperability etc

I just think INTEL could do better, give us more for less cost £££ and I see no other way to achieve this than to buy products from AMD, It's a total win/win situation for me personally, I have a great computer that fits all my needs well and for a very reasonable price *and* if enough people stop buying Intel then they will get the message and produce & price products accordingly.

Logically if the AMD hardware can satisfy my enthusiast needs it stands to reason they can satisfy most other enthusiasts needs as well . . . however for one reason or another a lot of people are not being made aware of the great value to be had from choosing a much cheaper product . . . OcUK don't stock the Athlon II X3, why do you think this is?

Anyway simply put . . . Intel work for us, not the other way around, we are the ones who call the shots not them. If you feel content with their products and their prices then fair enough, however if you do feel their products are not aimed at you or are perhaps over-priced then do something about it . . . buy AMD!

 

[Big.Wayne]

This clocks to 4ghz + and 50 quid more gets you a i5 750 trashing that AMD spec in its path

Hello easyrider, how are you? . . . good I hope?

Your point wayne?

Well I hoped my point was abundantly obvious but I clearly didn't put enough enough into my opening post so I'm sorry for that!

What I was hoping to achieve is to show some forum members what terrific value can be had by choosing AMD Athlon II X4 instead of an Intel® Core™ i7, of course we have many different types of enthusiasts in this great community of ours so the AMD Athlon II series will not fit everyone needs, as JonJ678 and Happy have succinctly replied there are a few scenarios where Core™ i7 clearly proves it's worth . . . albeit at a large price premium

This post was very much aimed at people who *perhaps* were thinking of splurging on a full blown Intel® Core™ i7 system and I was simply offering up the AMD Athlon II X4 as an alternative for their consideration . .

Your suggestion of Intel® Core™ i3 is a good alternative although that is not the main focus of discussion, one step at a time, lets deal with Intel® Core™ i7 first then a new thread can be made to disseminate the pros and cons of the new Core™ i3 . . .

Ram AMD home as much as you like. But its getting boring. Intel offer great bang for buck...Its just that you are wearing AMD Blinkers my friend.

I'm sorry you feel that way and I perhaps wonder what I could do so you find my posts more pleasing? . . . I am a hardware enthusiast just like everyone else and enjoy making posts and discussing hardware, I've recently switched over from LGA775 to socket AM2+/AM3 so my three year long run of making posts about LGA775 has sadly come to a close.

Regarding the "wearing AMD Blinkers" comment, in fairness I would say I have been wearing LGA775 blinkers which have just been removed and I can now take in the full hardware vista and I am seeing lots of great alternatives.

Hopefully you are able to join us soon playing with the new hardware . . . are you any nearer to placing an order yet? . . . have you decided which platform/chip is suitable for your personal needs/budget yet?

Do you think the Athlon II X4 offers a good alternative to the Intel® Core™ i7

There is a reason AMD are cheaper...They have to be in order to compete in the Market...Its not rocket science. It really is that simple.

I like cheaper, especially when the cheaper option offers such great performance, as always though if you pay more you get more, keep spending the money £££ and the performance just gets better and better but it's always been that way right. If Intel® were offering better performance *and* a better price then I dare say I would be using Intel® right now!

The Athlon II chips and AMD platform is really great and I think offers a very cost effective solution for the power user. For those people who prefere to buy hardware to Mame & Destroy other hardware I dare say the Athlon II series if not the right pick . . . but for people with limited budgets who want a good multipurpose platform I believe the Athlon II is just the ticket!

 

[Big.Wayne]

Ignoring the fact the amd system would be even cheaper, wouldn't the Athlon II X4 beat the i3 dualcore when rendering due to the extra two cores?

Hello Mr Pie!

I do think the i3 offers a solution that some will find pleasing but the danger comes from people not realising how good the AMD stuff is because for one reason or another some other forum members will always *only* talk about the most powerful hardware and make the cheaper options sound slow, laggy, incapable etc

I believe the rhetoric some people are using is misleading and doesn't do the AMD products any justice at all, all this talk of "Destroying, Grinding into dust, Ripping apart" is funny don't you think? . . . it sounds like the sort of thing my 7 year old godson uses when playing with his Power-Rangers or Ben-Ten toys!

I understand some people in this forum really must have the most powerful hardware but I think its fair to say some of us need the most powerful hardware we can get for the money and I can see no good reason why people shouldn't have an AMD rig in their pick list. It would be quite self defeating for us to only recommended the Intel kit as in the worst case scenario *if* Intel were to become the only supplier of processors we would all be well and truely ******

In order to get Intel where we want them we have to get behind AMD, people are still getting great performance and saving money £££ doing this but in the long run I would hope it would promote better pricing and more competition which equals a better deal for all of us!

 

[Big.Wayne]

Seems the amd 620 is better at rendering and the intel 530 is better at games

Hello JeffyB,

could I kindy ask you to concentrate on the topic of discussion please!

Intel® Core™ i7 vs AMD® Athlon™ II

If you have any performance comparisons of the above two processors please feel free to link them up and together as a group we can disseminate the information and analyse the Bang-For-Buck/Price/Performance Ratio

 

[Big.Wayne]

I'm not sure its a relevant comparison though really. The i7 is top end.

Indeed the Intel® Core™ i7 is top end and is a great target for comparison with the 100% cheaper Athlon II X4 i.e we can analyse exactly what the huge price premium offers the variety of users who may be contemplating the i7 route . . .

If you are going to compare Intel with AMD you should compare both top end intel and top end AMD? No?

No I don't believe so, the comparison between Intel's Flagship platform and AMD's midrange platform serves a purpose which is to highlight the diminishing returns some *may* experience depending on usage . . . i.e. if one spends 100% extra then one should expect a very substantial advantage no?

Phenom II against i7 not Athlon II against i7

Please feel free to make a thread discussing whatever you wish however I have made this thread to highlight the Price/Performance Ratio specifically between a costly Intel flagship platform and an affordable AMD platform. I am not comparing Phenom II, Core i3/i5 . . . I am comparing Athlon II and Core i7

I think people want the fastest PC for their money,,And if its intel then thry buy that.

I agree . . . however there are two *variables* in your statement

1. What is their budget (money)
2. What tasks are they gonna be doing (fastest)

Why buy mid range if you have the budget for i7?

Why buy i7 if you can slash the budget in half by buying mid range?

Please remember that not everyone is like yourself, some of us just want a very fast PC and don't care to spend more money than is needed. If you are a competitive bencher/folder or simply have a really serious daily workload there is good reason to spend extra money but trust me the Athlon II is no slouch and for the money it is extremely hard to beat

i7 does not belong in a discussion when compared to mid range AMD's offerings in Athlon II

I believe it does hence why I made this thread . . . they are both bits of hardware and therefore they can both be compared? . . . the fact that one is 100% more expensive than the other only makes it easier to illustrate the concept of diminishing returns that a lot of people may or may not encounter . . . because lets face it, if your paying a 100% extra for something you kinda expect a really, really big advantage right?

 

[Big.Wayne]

AMD Athlon II X4 620 Quad Core Processor Review
Overclockers Club

 

[Big.Wayne]

AMD Athlon II X4 620 review
Guru of 3D

 

[Big.Wayne]

AMD Athlon II X4 620 and Athlon II X4 630 Processor Review
Legit Reviews

 

[Big.Wayne]

AMD Athlon II X4 620 2.6 GHz Socket AM3 Quad-Core Processor Review
PCSTATS.com

 

[Big.Wayne]

INTEL® vs OVERCLOCKERS UNITED

 

[Big.Wayne]

Do we really have to have all these huge pictures? A link would suffice...

Hello Superewza,

oh dear, I thought the pictures would be good instead of clicking a link to a page full of advertising and what not, took me some time to compile them, optimise them, they are not too wide just tall . . . and you have broadband no?

If its a real problem I would be happy to accommodate if there are lots of users surfing on dial-up modems on an laptop!

 

[Big.Wayne]

<--- posting from 13" Macbook.

I quite like the images that illustrate the posts, I can just open the thread in a new tab and read it when I'm ready

cool!

Do you have to scroll left or right or just up & down?

I don't think Intel & AMD necessarily have a David & Goliath relationship though

It was meant to be us vs Intel actually!

It's my optimistic notion that we little people can make a difference!

Big.Wayne is obviously very passionate about AMD, and illustrates an interesting case for AMD chips being better value for many gamers

It may seem like that but my passion is actually Hardware, overclocking, bang for buck etc . . . . I'd like to think there are like-minded people to myself still posting on this forum so I just made a post about what I think is great hardware . . . just happens to be AMD at this moment in time . . .

This thread won't be of interest to everyone but as long as it's of interest to some then it's all good. I certainly did not intend to upset anyone or point fingers at i7 owners but I can't help but wonder how many newbies/lurkers walk away from these forums brainwashed into spending a lot more money than they need to.

Don't really see a problem with this thread myself, it's just a discussion!

enthusiasm directed to just one hobby can be a bit blinding , there's a whole world of interesting things out there but I start to digress...

I understand what your saying!

 

[Big.Wayne]

i3 clocks to 4ghz on air thats the point. Who runs their hardware at stock?

People who buy i3 will be buying to clock them to 4ghz and play games stuff.

Well according to this poll a lot more people that you realise!

The i3 here is beating all of AMD's range in WOW here.

That discussion can be had in another thread . . . . for now can I please ask you focus your train of thought on the AIIX4620 vs i7920 . . . If you have nothing further to contribute on this particular topic then please feel free to leave and contribute to another thread!

This one is intended to illustrate how the Athlon II X4 competes with the Intel Core i7 and perhaps demonstrate to any potential buyers out there that the Core i7 is not the only option . . . . once they scrubbed the i7 from their pick-list then we can discuss the next best option in another thread!

We have all heard what you have to say, loud & clear so please don't feel the need to keep repeating yourself again and again, you made your point and we can get to the i3 comparisons sometime in the near future . . . hopefully you will have bought some hardware soon with a little chunk of that mountain of cash of yours! £££££

From what your saying it sounds like your nearly confident enough to purchase something . . . could it be i3 I wonder!

 

[Big.Wayne]

btw Happy!

Congratz! . . . that's some awesome folding there buddy!

 

[Big.Wayne]

Off Topic:

Some points you failed or chose not to answer in my previous post?

I do believe you make it a habit to not answer questions and have developed a fine line in constantly missing the point . . kinda makes any attempt at a reasonable conversation with you pointless . . . most of your posts rely on your usual Argumentum ad hominem Technique which is really not called for in a technical forum!

I'm not particularly impressed at how you speak with other members of the community, keep that up and you will end up with no-one to talk with except yourself . . . there are plenty of other people on these forums who are more knowledgeable & friendly than you so I dare say my time is better spent with these likeminded individuals . . . I have practically nothing in common with you at all . . .

Is i3 not faster than athlon II in games for the same price?

Well as I have already told you a few times already I am analyzing the differences between AIIX4 and Core i7 and trying to draw a conclusion before moving onto the newer Core i3 (there is a lot of data involved), however you seem to not understand this? . . Please refrain from deliberately attempting to take this thread off topic with your Argumentum ad ignorantiam

All I will say for the moment is I have not seen sufficient data on the Core i3 to make any assumptions, if you feel strongly about this then please feel free to invest some of your time in creating a new thread full of facts and figures and I will be glad to contribute!

Is i3 not just a good solution for the same budget?

That remains to be seen, the burden of proof lay with you and I will be interested to see what you come up with in your thread. Just to say though your grasp of financial figures have always been wildly innacurate and therefore cannot be taken seriously. Athlon II X4 is *cheaper* than Core i3 in the real world so your basis for arguement is weakened already, there is also one or two other Athlon II chips I can use in your i3 comparison but that is another debate altogether (for another thread). I would suggest you read more than a single Anandtech article before making assumptions, I would also suggest you buy some hardware and stop giving it the large!

If you want to be helpful in this thread then please take up the other side of the debate I am presenting and demonstrate some strengths of Core i7 that I have perhaps missed . . . other than that I won't be drawn off topic by yourself any futher . . .

 

[Big.Wayne]

Could you also consider the costs of software? I mean you could use linux and not windows and save a packet

You have a good point although that falls outside the scope of this discussion!