A Working-Class Tory Is Something To Be . . .

RDM · 29 Sep 2010 at 19:44

Superewza said:
People are proud to be working class because that means they're the oppressed, not the oppressors.

I'm proud to be a doormat!

Yeah, lots of pride in that...

Castiel · 29 Sep 2010 at 19:48

Floogie said:
Don't be silly now. Claiming that Miliband is a Marxist is sensationalist rubbish. Also this cut-throat betrayal that you are moaning about pretty much qualifies him as a politician ready for the big league.

OP: A working class Tory is a disgusting creature in my book.

How much influence did his father have I wonder, enough to ask the question I'll warrant. His mother is not exactly centre ground either and it is well reported how much influence their Mother had on both brothers.

As for his betrayal, if a man can allegedly betray his brother so easily, then why should he be trusted not to betray the electorate so easily.

It is telling that you think that a politician is only competent if he is dishonest.

Castiel · 29 Sep 2010 at 19:54

[TW]Fox;17476802 said:
I dont think it does.

I think it DID qualify you, but you've experienced social mobility since then.

Welcome to the middle classes. Thats why you voted Tory.

I've voted Conservative for the last 20 years, so I may well be tagged as Middle Class due to my employment and financial status but I would argue that the Working Class goalposts have widened, rather than any real social mobility.

We simply have a larger Underclass, and an overlapping Working/Lower Middle Class bracket due to increased University education and the move to a Services dominated economy.

[TW]Fox · 29 Sep 2010 at 19:56

You can't be a manager for a large multinational organisation, be married to a Chartered Accountant who has reached the level of CFO, and claim to be working class.

Castiel · 29 Sep 2010 at 20:00

[TW]Fox;17476895 said:
You can't be a manager for a large multinational organisation, be married to a Chartered Accountant who has reached the level of CFO, and claim to be working class.

Yes I can. I regard my values and upbringing to be working class, thus I consider myself working class.

That some arbitrary social measurement may say otherwise doesn't take away the life I led up until I became a white-collar worker half a decade ago.

By Marx's definition I am working class.

Karl Marx defined the working class or proletariat as individuals who sell their labour power for wages and who do not own the means of production.

I do not own the means of production, I simply sell my labour to enable the Owners to profit from it. The definition of Working Class.

Floogie · 29 Sep 2010 at 20:04

Castiel said:
How much influence did his father have I wonder, enough to ask the question I'll warrant. His mother is not exactly centre ground either and it is well reported how much influence their Mother had on both brothers.

Asking the question is perfectly valid. But your reasoning for labelling him as a Marxist is based upon nothing but pure speculation? That's wrong.

As for his betrayal, if a man can allegedly betray his brother so easily, then why should he be trusted not to betray the electorate so easily.

It is telling that you think that a politician is only competent if he is dishonest.

Dishonesty doesn't make a competent politician. It just ensures we get the type of politician we deserve.

[TW]Fox · 29 Sep 2010 at 20:06

Castiel said:
I do not own the means of production, I simply sell my labour to enable the Owners to profit from it. The definition of Working Class.

Using that definition, 99% of the middle class is working class. Since when did we live in a Marxist economy?

RDM · 29 Sep 2010 at 20:10

Castiel said:
Yes I can. I regard my values and upbringing to be working class, thus I consider myself working class.

What exactly are working class values and how do they differ from middle class values?

KNiVES · 29 Sep 2010 at 20:10

Castiel said:
Yes I can. I regard my values and upbringing to be working class, thus I consider myself working class.

No you can't. You can't twist the definition of working class just to suit yourself and your noble crusade.

I'll also echo the working class tories being completely disgusting and vile little creatures. That's like cutting your face off to spite your nose.

Castiel · 29 Sep 2010 at 20:11

[TW]Fox;17476956 said:
Using that definition, 99% of the middle class is working class. Since when did we live in a Marxist economy?

Ok, then another example then:

From a sociological point of view the class system in Britain changed substantially during the 'Thatcher Era'. Home ownership (on mortgage) was extended throughout the middle classes and below. With the loss of the majority of traditional working class industrial jobs from the market, a new 'underclass', below working class emerged. The 'underclass', defined as unemployed relying on state benefits, is the new bottom of the British class system.

In Britain people considered of lower social standing can earn high incomes, but an individual's social class is still largely assessed by their parent's mannerisms, education and the status.

By this definition on British social status I am also Working Class.

[TW]Fox · 29 Sep 2010 at 20:13

I wonder what all the people struggling to put dinner on the table working a hard manual job to come home to a council house think of you and your accountant wife with BMW's, plasma TV's and high salaries considering themselves to be just like them?

You are middle class. Why you think this is a bad thing I've no idea.

Floogie · 29 Sep 2010 at 20:14

[TW]Fox;17476956 said:
Using that definition, 99% of the middle class is working class. Since when did we live in a Marxist economy?

Not really. A lot of the middle classes can be identified by the Marxist term "Petite bourgeoisie". These are the people who employ the labour of others or run a business which does not involve owning the means of production.

[TW]Fox · 29 Sep 2010 at 20:15

Floogie said:
Not really. A lot of the middle classes can be identified by the Marxist term "Petite bourgeoisie". These are the people who employ the labour of others or run a business which does not involve owning the means of production.

Somebody who is, say, a senior consultant at KPMG with a 1st class honours degree from LSE will earn several hundred thousand pounds a year, but does not run a business, employ any staff or own the means of production.

They are also quite obviously not working class.

Castiel · 29 Sep 2010 at 20:16

KNiVES said:
No you can't. You can't twist the definition of working class just to suit yourself and your noble crusade.

I'll also echo the working class tories being completely disgusting and vile little creatures. That's like cutting your face off to spite your nose.

I'm not twisting anything, neither have I any crusade, noble or otherwise.

Why are working classes who vote for the conservative party vile exactly?

RDM · 29 Sep 2010 at 20:22

Castiel said:
Why are working classes who vote for the conservative party vile exactly?

Lets be honest, the posters in question possibly think all Conservative voters are vile! However I would assume they feel that "working class" Conservative voters are betraying the rest of the "working class".

Castiel · 29 Sep 2010 at 20:22

[TW]Fox;17477015 said:
I wonder what all the people struggling to put dinner on the table working a hard manual job to come home to a council house think of you and your accountant wife with BMW's, plasma TV's and high salaries considering themselves to be just like them?

You are middle class. Why you think this is a bad thing I've no idea.

I don't think it is a bad thing, and my wife considers herself middle class, I however am what I always have been, a working class kid. I may earn good money and I may have the trappings of that, but that doesn't change the social status of my upbringing or the way in which I perceive myself.

Does the impoverished Lord become working class simply due to his lack of funds? or does his education, upbringing and social status of his Parents also determine his social standing.

[TW]Fox · 29 Sep 2010 at 20:23

Castiel said:
I don't think it is a bad thing, and my wife considers herself middle class, I however am what I always have been, a working class kid. I may earn good money and I may have the trappings of that, but that doesn't change the social status of my upbringing or the way in which I perceive myself.

Does the impoverished Lord become working class simply due to his lack of funds? or does his education, upbringing and social status of his Parents also determine his social standing.

Whilst I hate quoting Wikipedia, this link should hopefully explain why its possible for you to be middle class despite your upbringing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Mobility

Floogie · 29 Sep 2010 at 20:24

[TW]Fox;17477030 said:
Somebody who is, say, a senior consultant at KPMG with a 1st class honours degree from LSE will earn several hundred thousand pounds a year, but does not run a business, employ any staff or own the means of production.

They are also quite obviously not working class.

It's also a matter of self-identification through the individuals history (like in the case of Castiel). From similar real life scenarios similar to the one you provide, I would expect the children of said person to be bona fide middle class citizens.

Tefal · 29 Sep 2010 at 20:24

Castiel said:
I do not own the means of production, I simply sell my labour to enable the Owners to profit from it. The definition of Working Class.

So would you say your brother is not working class then?

Castiel · 29 Sep 2010 at 20:26

RDM said:
Lets be honest, the posters in question possibly think all Conservative voters are vile! However I would assume they feel that "working class" Conservative voters are betraying the rest of the "working class".

Considering that the differences between New Labour and the Conservatives are so inconsequential I find that silly.

Besides the biggest movement in social mobility for the working classes was the Right to Buy, introduced by a conservative Govt.