Abu Dhabi Prix 2015, Yas Marina - Race 19/19
- Thread starter Shimmy
- Start date
Interesting conversation on the Sky coverage of FP1.
Christian Horner saying the 2017 cars will be 4 or 5 secs a lap quicker but will be just as hard to overtake each other as it is now.
I thought the whole point of the new reg's in 2017 was to make it easier to overtake? No point making the cars quicker if we are in the exact same situation as we are now.
Christian Horner saying the 2017 cars will be 4 or 5 secs a lap quicker but will be just as hard to overtake each other as it is now.
I thought the whole point of the new reg's in 2017 was to make it easier to overtake? No point making the cars quicker if we are in the exact same situation as we are now.
Been doing all the race and testing threads for 2 years now
RBR have confirmed they have an engine deal in place for next year. Basically their unbranded Renault deal.
Been doing all the race and testing threads for 2 years now
Totally knew that because of the timely creation and excellent quality and really nice things and stuff..
Been doing all the race and testing threads for 2 years now
RBR have confirmed they have an engine deal in place for next year. Basically their unbranded Renault deal.
Hopefully their additions to it make them closer to the front. The more teams challenging for podiums the better.
Thanks Shimmy for all the race threads
Now that Merc has the 1-2 in the WDC I hope they will let them race. It might be the last live BBC race
They had the 1-2 in the WDC last race too...
You'd have thought so wouldn't you, but no. They are quite litterally focusing on making the cars faster. The proposals around refueling were because it would mean the cars ran with ~30KG of fuel rather than the 100KG they use now, which makes them lighter and faster. They are talking about more aggressive aero to increase down force to increase corner speeds and make them faster. And then wider tyres for more grip to make them faster too. And then they want more powerfull engines which make them faster.
There is zero consideration about improving the racing, they are focused solely on making cars faster. So what were going to end up with is cars going faster, and overtaking less, which will be crap. As I mentioned in a previous thread, what were going to get is mid 2000's spec cars with 1000bhp and wider tyres. So a higher speed procession and a return to an average of less than 1 overtake a race. Yay...
Last edited:
Soldato
According to an interview with Pat Symonds on Motorsport.com I read today, the 2017 cars might actually be harder to pass, and more difficult to follow closely.
Which is utter genius.
Bravo guys, a round of applause for the entirety of the decision makers in F1 completely forgetting to engage the group-shared brain cell and make a decision that actually makes a modicum of sense based on the objectives set out.
Edit: It also appears that the drivers were:
a) consulted
b) listened to
as evidenced by Lewis Hamilton:
Source: Grand Prix Times
Which is utter genius.
Bravo guys, a round of applause for the entirety of the decision makers in F1 completely forgetting to engage the group-shared brain cell and make a decision that actually makes a modicum of sense based on the objectives set out.
Edit: It also appears that the drivers were:
a) consulted
b) listened to
as evidenced by Lewis Hamilton:
Source: Grand Prix Times
Last edited:
Caporegime
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 33,188
People are making it far far too simple and jumping to conclusions while also ignoring what ground effect would do to the sport as it is.
A fundamental part of the sport is ongoing updates throughout the year and teams making better chassis winning. Ground effect is to a certain degree dangerous, to implement it which is relatively easy you can test the limits and where it may detach, but it also somewhat precludes in season development because lack of testing could lead to fairly dangerous situations.
It would also likely mean almost every car with heavily regulated ground effect that doesn't change throughout the year and same on every car needs a similar design of car, same rake, same suspension setup, same almost everything. It works in GP2 precisely because it's a stock car series, it could be a huge problem in F1 precisely because F1 is not supposed to be a series that forces near identical cars. Gp2 also has an entirely different format to consistently mix up the order. GP2 in F1 race weekend format would have drastically less variation in the finishing order.
With a significantly ground effect aero then wing aero would be reduced in effect proportionally making the differences between cars way smaller, not bad but also not at all what makes F1 what it is. Most of the effort currently within the wing is done because the wing lines up with the edge of the tire and they are trying to work as much air outside of the tire as possible. A narrower(as I understood the intention was but might not still be) along with a wider tire means 70% of the intricate crap on the end of the wing becomes worthless.
Diffuser being bigger likely means more reliable downforce in corners, this is what is needed for closer following. The front wing by design hits dirty air when following but the entire length of the car is about shaping the air to get to the diffuser thus the diffuser works a lot better than the front wing in dirty air.
They also have wider tires and likely a lot more mechanical grip as a result, again this will probably help in the corners.
It's not just a case of add loads of reliable downforce, it's a balance. Add X points of downforce in corners and ground effect which don't forget will make the lead car slower again. Doing everything the fans think of together could create a situation where the car ahead will always have so much downforce, the car behind can follow so easily that EVERY single straight will have the car behind overtake too easily. But everyone ignores that possibility entirely.
Higher speeds down straights with more grip and less wheel spin down every straight means..... more air resistance. The faster you go the higher drag gets and again the better the slipstream effect(regardless of DRS or not). The lead car is punching a whole through the air and the car behind is following with far effective force.
Every change has an impact and the goal is to bring cars closer, not make it impossible for a car ahead to maintain a lead at all. The goal is balance, a large portion of fans have spent the past 18 months complaining about lap times, how 'close' WEC/GP2 cars are in speed and how much slower the cars are than 5 years ago. There is no perfect solution to every fans complaint and more importantly most fans don't have a clue what they are talking about.
They should make relatively smaller changes, wider tires is a good step, some smaller aero changes, see how 2017 is. If passing isn't improved, consider another step from there.
AS much as fans think there is, there isn't a silver bullet, fans don't think beyond the big change they think will work, ignoring all the knock on effects of that change. Hitting a specific point where over taking is decent but not insanely easy is incredibly complex.
A fundamental part of the sport is ongoing updates throughout the year and teams making better chassis winning. Ground effect is to a certain degree dangerous, to implement it which is relatively easy you can test the limits and where it may detach, but it also somewhat precludes in season development because lack of testing could lead to fairly dangerous situations.
It would also likely mean almost every car with heavily regulated ground effect that doesn't change throughout the year and same on every car needs a similar design of car, same rake, same suspension setup, same almost everything. It works in GP2 precisely because it's a stock car series, it could be a huge problem in F1 precisely because F1 is not supposed to be a series that forces near identical cars. Gp2 also has an entirely different format to consistently mix up the order. GP2 in F1 race weekend format would have drastically less variation in the finishing order.
With a significantly ground effect aero then wing aero would be reduced in effect proportionally making the differences between cars way smaller, not bad but also not at all what makes F1 what it is. Most of the effort currently within the wing is done because the wing lines up with the edge of the tire and they are trying to work as much air outside of the tire as possible. A narrower(as I understood the intention was but might not still be) along with a wider tire means 70% of the intricate crap on the end of the wing becomes worthless.
Diffuser being bigger likely means more reliable downforce in corners, this is what is needed for closer following. The front wing by design hits dirty air when following but the entire length of the car is about shaping the air to get to the diffuser thus the diffuser works a lot better than the front wing in dirty air.
They also have wider tires and likely a lot more mechanical grip as a result, again this will probably help in the corners.
It's not just a case of add loads of reliable downforce, it's a balance. Add X points of downforce in corners and ground effect which don't forget will make the lead car slower again. Doing everything the fans think of together could create a situation where the car ahead will always have so much downforce, the car behind can follow so easily that EVERY single straight will have the car behind overtake too easily. But everyone ignores that possibility entirely.
Higher speeds down straights with more grip and less wheel spin down every straight means..... more air resistance. The faster you go the higher drag gets and again the better the slipstream effect(regardless of DRS or not). The lead car is punching a whole through the air and the car behind is following with far effective force.
Every change has an impact and the goal is to bring cars closer, not make it impossible for a car ahead to maintain a lead at all. The goal is balance, a large portion of fans have spent the past 18 months complaining about lap times, how 'close' WEC/GP2 cars are in speed and how much slower the cars are than 5 years ago. There is no perfect solution to every fans complaint and more importantly most fans don't have a clue what they are talking about.
They should make relatively smaller changes, wider tires is a good step, some smaller aero changes, see how 2017 is. If passing isn't improved, consider another step from there.
AS much as fans think there is, there isn't a silver bullet, fans don't think beyond the big change they think will work, ignoring all the knock on effects of that change. Hitting a specific point where over taking is decent but not insanely easy is incredibly complex.
Associate
Yes, agreed thanks for all the good quality threads, Shimmy.
The McLarens are hopeless on top speed here:
309 km/h for Button
333 km/h for Maldonado
They're better in the twisties, but still...
The McLarens are hopeless on top speed here:
309 km/h for Button
333 km/h for Maldonado
They're better in the twisties, but still...
Good work shimmy.
If it wasn't on BBC, I doubt I would pay for sky,
It's interesting the ham v ros though. What's happened.
I can't see ham not caring, but ros has had the upper hand fir a few weekends now. Can see ros doing a clean sweep again today. Can he just not handle pressure now he's lost he can drive again. Something on cars changed or what? I don't understand the sudden swing.
If it wasn't on BBC, I doubt I would pay for sky,
It's interesting the ham v ros though. What's happened.
I can't see ham not caring, but ros has had the upper hand fir a few weekends now. Can see ros doing a clean sweep again today. Can he just not handle pressure now he's lost he can drive again. Something on cars changed or what? I don't understand the sudden swing.
Soldato
BBC saying that big Ron can't confirm Alonso will race for them next year!
Caporegime
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 33,188
Could be down to budget, 25-30mil, though half supposedly paid by Honda. Earlier this year Ron's general response to losing sponsors and costs required was that Honda would have to put more money in. I was also under the impression they gave Alonso a HUGE wage to get him to sign for more than one year, it may/may not have had performance clauses in there but I see this more as Mclaren/Honda wanting to drop costs and Alonso using that as a way to get out of the team.
Mclaren made what was it, 17mil loss this year, less income from FIA next year, less sponsorship again, can't see it being a good year the next couple of years either.
For Mclaren going from 25-30mil to 1-2 for Vandoorne would be a great more financially. The reality is Alonso isn't worth 25+mil a year to them unless they have a car that he may make the difference between 1st and 2nd. The difference between 14th and 15th or even 7th and 8th simply isn't worth paying any driver that much. By the time Mclaren are competitive his contract will be up anyway.
Mclaren made what was it, 17mil loss this year, less income from FIA next year, less sponsorship again, can't see it being a good year the next couple of years either.
For Mclaren going from 25-30mil to 1-2 for Vandoorne would be a great more financially. The reality is Alonso isn't worth 25+mil a year to them unless they have a car that he may make the difference between 1st and 2nd. The difference between 14th and 15th or even 7th and 8th simply isn't worth paying any driver that much. By the time Mclaren are competitive his contract will be up anyway.
At the moment I doubt that much can be confirmed about McLaren. They are seriously down on funds, and paying for the most expensive driver on the grid must be raising some eyebrows in the accounts department.
Caporegime
Caporegime
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 33,188
I want to punch Crofty so hard, now talking about potentially not getting into Q3 because being miles ahead of those from 4th backwards the marginal drop in track temps might drop him 1.5 seconds back. Guy is such a complete gimp.
AS for Vettel if he gave that up thinking he was in anyway that is a huge mistake from both him and the pitwall not letting him know how close he was.
EDIT:- Vettel now said to reporters no problem he just gave up the lap. That is as big a mistake as you can make. I mean Hamilton did it last year but in Q3, got 9th and it was on a wet track where he pulled up without knowing S3 had dried up and was faster. This is pretty unforgivable from Vettel and more importantly his pitwall guy not telling him what time he needed.
AS for Vettel if he gave that up thinking he was in anyway that is a huge mistake from both him and the pitwall not letting him know how close he was.
EDIT:- Vettel now said to reporters no problem he just gave up the lap. That is as big a mistake as you can make. I mean Hamilton did it last year but in Q3, got 9th and it was on a wet track where he pulled up without knowing S3 had dried up and was faster. This is pretty unforgivable from Vettel and more importantly his pitwall guy not telling him what time he needed.
