Exactly. That was my point. The sale of acid should fall under similar restrictions as other hazardous items such as explosives etc. At the end of the day though, a determined individual only needs to buy a car battery from Halfords and then drain it for a flask full of acid. Given this, restrictions wouldn't be 100% effective but they would reasonably reduce the number of acid attacks I think.
Acid attacks
- Thread starter Uther
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Exactly. That was my point. The sale of acid should fall under similar restrictions as other hazardous items such as explosives etc. At the end of the day though, a determined individual only needs to buy a car battery from Halfords and then drain it for a flask full of acid. Given this, restrictions wouldn't be 100% effective but they would reasonably reduce the number of acid attacks I think.
Soldato
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the sooner they ban this stuff the better
The average household has no need for caustic substances? Like drain cleaner, or toilet cleaner, or patio cleaner?
Caustic substances are widely used for legitimate household purposes, banning them is overkill.
And yes they are easy to synthesise at home, there are even videos showing you how to do it on youtube.
People should be allowed to practice chemistry at home just like any other hobby, it is little wonder that we have less and less people studying the subject when there is such public hostility towards it.
Soldato
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Banning it is silly but there is no reason why it can't be sold over the counter only at hardware places.
That's not what I said so don't straw man me.
That's exactly what you said. In fact, you went much further and said that the average household has no need for acid. Energize replied with a few examples of strong acids with common household uses, but you said that the average household has no need for acid, not just strong acid. So Energize was doing pretty much the opposite of straw manning you since you were actually saying that the average household has no need of any acid and that would include things such as vinegar, fruit juice and other drinks.
No it isn't. Read it again. I never mentioned caustic substances I was very specific and only referred to acid. Yes it's a caustic substance ..................... whatever I'm bored now.
OK...so you've no objection to the sale of caustic substances as long as they're not an acid.
That seems like a very odd distinction to make. You'd restrict the sale of fruit juice and vinegar but not hazardous chemicals that can dissolve flesh and kill people. Why? I don't understand why you'd draw the line in the place you're drawing it.
Something tells me you do understand but you're just ever so polite.
Why because of the 0.0001% that will abuse it ?
It would be pretty reasonable to assume people wanted the face-melting stuff banned. Not everyone is a chemist...
...but I'm sure we all can perceive the difference between substances which dissolve skin quickly on contact (Breaking Bad stylee), and a squirty bottle of Cif.
If the face-melting stuff was banned in its pure form, or at least required a license to purchase, that wouldn't impact upon your ability to purchase lemon-scented Flash multi-purpose cleaner.
In fact I can't believe you don't need some sort of license to purchase that stuff anyhow. It's arguably more dangerous than a sharp knife as it can be used at range without giving the victim any chance to defend themselves. Like a gun.
...but I'm sure we all can perceive the difference between substances which dissolve skin quickly on contact (Breaking Bad stylee), and a squirty bottle of Cif.
If the face-melting stuff was banned in its pure form, or at least required a license to purchase, that wouldn't impact upon your ability to purchase lemon-scented Flash multi-purpose cleaner.
In fact I can't believe you don't need some sort of license to purchase that stuff anyhow. It's arguably more dangerous than a sharp knife as it can be used at range without giving the victim any chance to defend themselves. Like a gun.
IIRC a lot of the more "liquid" substances are only really available via specialist stores already (at least in their ready to use form), and I suspect the sort of places that sell high concentrates of things like sulfuric acid for use in car batteries will likely be unhappy about supplying it to younger people already (it's not exactly a commonly bought item these days* as so many batteries are sealed/simply replaced and you tend to not use lead acid batteries for much other than cars).
Most of what you get from the DIY stores is stuff like drain/oven cleaners and paint strippers and they tend to be sold as a goo, powder or pellet form rather than a proper fast acting liquid.
Certainly I can see that making some of the stuff over the counter is going to make it a little harder to get hold of for idiots, but when you can get it from old car batteries (and if need be distil it a bit), or by taking normal household substances and spending a few minutes at the sink it's not going to make a big difference short of putting a large part of the cleaning section in the supermarket behind the counter.
You can't really ban caustic substances, or make them that much harder to get hold of without also basically stopping people from being able to do housework and DIY, or starting their car, at best you can make them so you have to be 18 to buy them.
The biggest deterrent would probably be for automatic sentences for having it on you without good reason (especially if not in a properly marked/original container), and enough police to actually catch the scum that use it.
*My dad has some fun stories of the sorts of things some of his friends used to do in the garages in the 70's, such as the neighbour who took a very large high molar jar of Sulpheric acid home from their job and stored it on a high shelf so he had a supply of it for his car battery (my dad still thinks the guy was stupid for that).
Most of what you get from the DIY stores is stuff like drain/oven cleaners and paint strippers and they tend to be sold as a goo, powder or pellet form rather than a proper fast acting liquid.
Certainly I can see that making some of the stuff over the counter is going to make it a little harder to get hold of for idiots, but when you can get it from old car batteries (and if need be distil it a bit), or by taking normal household substances and spending a few minutes at the sink it's not going to make a big difference short of putting a large part of the cleaning section in the supermarket behind the counter.
You can't really ban caustic substances, or make them that much harder to get hold of without also basically stopping people from being able to do housework and DIY, or starting their car, at best you can make them so you have to be 18 to buy them.
The biggest deterrent would probably be for automatic sentences for having it on you without good reason (especially if not in a properly marked/original container), and enough police to actually catch the scum that use it.
*My dad has some fun stories of the sorts of things some of his friends used to do in the garages in the 70's, such as the neighbour who took a very large high molar jar of Sulpheric acid home from their job and stored it on a high shelf so he had a supply of it for his car battery (my dad still thinks the guy was stupid for that).
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It is exactly what you said, all those examples I gave are strong face melting caustic substances.
The face melting stuff is exactly what is used as drain cleaner (sodium hydroxide) and patio cleaner (hydrochloric acid).
Threads like these just highlight the lack of basic chemistry understanding the general public have.
It really shouldn't surprise you. Chemistry is complex and conceptually difficult - most of us have no need to learn about it.
Chemistry also wasn't taught at my school back in '96. I got a couple GCSE A*s for "science" and don't recall there being any chemistry involved at all. Since that time my need to know much/any chemistry has been zero. I didn't take it at A-level nor have I ever needed to so much as glance at a periodic table.
So I'm not sure why you're surprised.
Like WW said, there should be automatic sentences for people in possession of this stuff if you can't prove you're using it as intended. And restrictions on the sale of it to whatever extent is practical.
When you have gang members telling reporters that acid is now their weapon of choice - because they cannot be prosecuted for possessing it no matter how clear their intentions to maim are - something is very wrong.
Basic chemistry is compulsory in secondary schools and has been for a long time, what we are talking about here is acids/bases which is something normally taught in year 7, so basically something a 10 year old would be expected to understand.
Given the standard of UK schools though, I wouldn't necessarily say I am surprised that people think strong acids are only something used in science labs or terrorist plots.
Given the standard of UK schools though, I wouldn't necessarily say I am surprised that people think strong acids are only something used in science labs or terrorist plots.
Tbh I didn't have to learn anything at secondary school, besides how to cram for 48 hours before the exam. 99.9% of the stuff they "taught" at school was forgotten within 12 months of leaving. It helped that the pool of questions was very, very limited and the same questions would come up year after year. After being given one or two practice exams we knew what the questions would be. Passing secondary school was a test of your (very) short term memory and nothing more.
I honestly can't remember learning a single bit of chesmistry at school. 100% truthful.
You almost definitely should have done some chemistry - the science double award was a bit odd around 96-97 for GCSE though - in my year some classes like mine did mostly Physics and Chemistry with less emphasis on Biology and some did Biology with less emphasis on Physics or Chemistry.
Soldato
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I opted for Physics, Chemistry and Biology (guess it's called something like triple science these days), one good thing about back then is that all three subjects were taught by teachers with relevant qualifications and experience in the fields they were teaching. Take my Chemistry teacher for example, he'd had 30 odd years experience in the upper echelons of the petrochemical industry before he got into teaching.
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You can't ban sulphuric acid. It is the lifeblood of industry.