Adding a sub to a soundbar?

MCFC_ANDY

MCFC_ANDY

MCFC_ANDY

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just bought a denon dht-s217 budget soundbar, it has a sub out connection and have option to add Subwoofer with built-in amplifier, just wondered being no expert on audio would it make much of a difference?

www.denon.com

DHT-S217 - Compact Sound Bar with Dolby Atmos | Denon - UK

The DHT-S217 Compact Sound Bar with Dolby Atmos from Denon provides high quality audio for your hi-fi needs. Explore more Sound Bars at Denon - UK.
www.denon.com www.denon.com

cheers in advance
 
The product description says:

"The Denon DHT-S217 is a slender sound bar featuring two powerful, built-in down-firing subwoofers and Dolby Atmos 3D audio technology to create a surround sound experience without a separate subwoofer."

So it has subwoofers built-in and you shouldn't need a separate one. Why don't you just see how it sounds first?
 
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radderfire said:
So it has subwoofers built-in and you shouldn't need a separate one. Why don't you just see how it sounds first? You probably won't need one.
Click to expand...

The built in “subwoofers” will have a lot of gain just to hit the claimed frequency response, but likely with a lot of THD.


It won’t sound bad, but if your intention is to have good depth for movies, the soundbar likely won’t cut the mustard.


Even a basic subwoofer will be much better.



That being said, adding a subwoofer will increase the complexity of the setup, in that you’ll have to set the subwoofer up properly, or you won’t really benefit from it.



As above, try it first and if you’re not happy with it, add a sub after the fact.
 
i have , a few movies, last one was Saw X, just feel its missing that big boom, maybe im too used to my old setup from when married, a 5.1 system with nice beefy 250w sub:D
 
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The term 'subwoofer' can cause a bit of confusion. Folk have this idea that subwoofer automatically equates to T-Rex stomping about in Jurassic Park. It can, but that required much larger drivers (cones), much bigger boxes, and a heck of a lot more power than your typical sound bar can muster.

How come a sound bar can claim to have built-in subwoofers then?
The answer is that subwoofer frequencies start much higher than many realise. Try 200Hz.

That number might not mean much, but go to YouTube and type in '200Hz test tone'. I'll bet you can hear that from the dinky speakers of a laptop or even your smart phone. It's a much higher pitch than you'd associate with subwoofers. That's why little sound bars can make the claim.

Where does this leave us with external subs then?
200Hz is the top of the subwoofer frequency range, but it goes way way below that.

In theory, music gets down to 20Hz because that's the limit of our hearing. In practice, stuff playing at below 30Hz is already getting hard to hear. At 20Hz the chances are you'll only feel the sound, not hear it. Sub bass for movies (the LFE track) can get down to 3Hz. You'll need some serious gear to push air at that frequency, but it's all in the sub range and way below what any sound bar can attempt.

The subs in a small sound bar will be starting to tail off significantly at 60-70Hz. If you hear much below that it'll mostly be the higher harmonics that accompany each fundamental note. Adding a decent external sub will help fill in what's missing, and depending on how good tou are at blending the two, you'll also be able to flesh out a little higher to add weight to the bars lower frequencies.

Your budget will determine how successful you'll be here.

Budget subs are not thin on the ground, but there's a lot of stuff out there that's not really worth the time. As a general rule I'd steer away from Eltax, Boston, Q Acoustics, Yamaha, Auna, Cambridge Audio, and anything made by any firm that produces TVs. A 10" driver and around 150W of power is a reasonable starting point for a smallish room for 2-3 adults. Bigger rooms require a bigger sub and more power.

Best bang for your Buck is generally BK, some KEF, some of the larger Tannoy subs, maybe Monitor Audio, B&W, and REL.

BK Gemini II goes for around £90-£150. BK XLS200 is the same 40cm cube but runs with a better driver and more power. I have seen them go as low as £80 and up to £200.

KEF PSW2010 can be had for under £100 used. This has the same infinite adjustment controls for crossover and phase as the BKs which makes it easier to dial in where the sound bar lacks bass management. KEF PSW2500 has the same 10" driver but with more power and a larger enclosure. £80-£150.

That should get you started. Look in member's market here and on eBay and AV forums classifieds.
 
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lucid said:
The term 'subwoofer' can cause a bit of confusion. Folk have this idea that subwoofer automatically equates to T-Rex stomping about in Jurassic Park. It can, but that required much larger drivers (cones), much bigger boxes, and a heck of a lot more power than your typical sound bar can muster.

How come a sound bar can claim to have built-in subwoofers then?
The answer is that subwoofer frequencies start much higher than many realise. Try 200Hz.

That number might not mean much, but go to YouTube and type in '200Hz test tone'. I'll bet you can hear that from the dinky speakers of a laptop or even your smart phone. It's a much higher pitch than you'd associate with subwoofers. That's why little sound bars can make the claim.

Where does this leave us with external subs then?
200Hz is the top of the subwoofer frequency range, but it goes way way below that.

In theory, music gets down to 20Hz because that's the limit of our hearing. In practice, stuff playing at below 30Hz is already getting hard to hear. At 20Hz the chances are you'll only feel the sound, not hear it. Sub bass for movies (the LFE track) can get down to 3Hz. You'll need some serious gear to push air at that frequency, but it's all in the sub range and way below what any sound bar can attempt.

The subs in a small sound bar will be starting to tail off significantly at 60-70Hz. If you hear much below that it'll mostly be the higher harmonics that accompany each fundamental note. Adding a decent external sub will help fill in what's missing, and depending on how good tou are at blending the two, you'll also be able to flesh out a little higher to add weight to the bars lower frequencies.

Your budget will determine how successful you'll be here.

Budget subs are not thin on the ground, but there's a lot of stuff out there that's not really worth the time. As a general rule I'd steer away from Eltax, Boston, Q Acoustics, Yamaha, Auna, Cambridge Audio, and anything made by any firm that produces TVs. A 10" driver and around 150W of power is a reasonable starting point for a smallish room for 2-3 adults. Bigger rooms require a bigger sub and more power.

Best bang for your Buck is generally BK, some KEF, some of the larger Tannoy subs, maybe Monitor Audio, B&W, and REL.

BK Gemini II goes for around £90-£150. BK XLS200 is the same 40cm cube but runs with a better driver and more power. I have seen them go as low as £80 and up to £200.

KEF PSW2010 can be had for under £100 used. This has the same infinite adjustment controls for crossover and phase as the BKs which makes it easier to dial in where the sound bar lacks bass management. KEF PSW2500 has the same 10" driver but with more power and a larger enclosure. £80-£150.

That should get you started. Look in member's market here and on eBay and AV forums classifieds.
Click to expand...
Thx that's very informative for us non audiophiles n helps a lot. Obviously with a 200quid sound bar I'm wasn't expecting much, but watching no time to die it was missing something,. It feels flat the explosion side of it. It's ok I guess. Any ideas on a budget sub that would uplift the experience those models above not showing any decent buys . Used be fine under say 200 notes, if such a thing exists
 
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MCFC_ANDY said:
Thx that's very informative for us non audiophiles n helps a lot. Obviously with a 200quid sound bar I'm wasn't expecting much, but watching no time to die it was missing something,. It feels flat the explosion side of it. It's ok I guess. Any ideas on a budget sub that would uplift the experience those models above not showing any decent buys . Used be fine under say 200 notes, if such a thing exists
Click to expand...

Increase budget. There's bk Gemini but that's still above your budget.

Room size /volume?
 
With a soundbar, the sub will have to play quite high up, so you want a good subwoofer. Doesn't have to be 18" 4000w. Just quality driver, rather than a boom box.

10" sealed box should be ok, so bk 150/Gemini, xls 300, double gem.

Auction site has offers so worth a look

Better build than cheapo subs real wood veneer so worth the extra.

I had wharfedale sw-150 , it was ok, but I would recommend getting something a bit better.
 
MCFC_ANDY said:
Thx that's very informative for us non audiophiles n helps a lot. Obviously with a 200quid sound bar I'm wasn't expecting much, but watching no time to die it was missing something,. It feels flat the explosion side of it. It's ok I guess. Any ideas on a budget sub that would uplift the experience those models above not showing any decent buys . Used be fine under say 200 notes, if such a thing exists
Click to expand...

In no particular order of preference, all used subs:

Miller and Kreisel (MK) SB-12 Subwoofer Black - currently at £90 with no bids on eBay. Would expect this to go for a fair bit more but a 'collect only' from N.London might put off a lot of bidders - item no. 266496645251

BK Electronics Platinum P12-300SB Subwoofer - Black - £189 or best offer - £26 delivery - item no. 335103754182

MJ Acoustics Pro 50 MkII active sub base system - Black - currently £100 or best offer - no bids - collection only N. London. Think BK XLS200 but with a less powerful amp (120W, but still plenty for partnering a sound bar). Made by the same firm that makes BK subs. Item no. 394986150176

TANNOY TS10 300W 10” Grey with Adj. Feet, Active subwoofer - Fully working VGC - currently £102 with 4 bids and a day to go. 10" driver and 300W power. It's not the right colour for you, and the balanced inputs and outputs are way beyond where you're at (it still has regular RCA inputs) but this is a lot of power in a compact box with very comprehensive controls. Item no. 355161005525
 
lucid said:
TANNOY TS10 300W 10” Grey with Adj. Feet, Active subwoofer - Fully working VGC - currently £102 with 4 bids and a day to go. 10" driver and 300W power. It's not the right colour for you, and the balanced inputs and outputs are way beyond where you're at (it still has regular RCA inputs) but this is a lot of power in a compact box with very comprehensive controls. Item no. 355161005525
Click to expand...
seen it yesterday and is actually in my watch list, even though the connections and knobs confused hell out of me :cry:
 
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i have a question for you audiophiles, my Denon soundbar has indicator lights that tell you blue light = Atmos, green light Dolby (other than Atmos) and white light PCM (or No Signal). then it gets complicated, my tv has a few settings(pictured) now if i select any of them apart from PCM i get Dolby(other that Atmos) light come on, if i select auto or pcm i get white light, not Dolby, but sounds good,lol though if Atmos it will do Atmos on auto, so sort of confused here, i been told that pcm is the best option.

some input would help as dont no which do i select, leave it on auto or change every time dependant on movie? Earc selected if makes any difference

PXL-20231109-134426742.jpg
 
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MCFC_ANDY said:
i have a question for you audiophiles, my Denon soundbar has indicator lights that tell you blue light = Atmos, green light Dolby (other than Atmos) and white light PCM (or No Signal). then it gets complicated, my tv has a few settings(pictured) now if i select any of them apart from PCM i get Dolby(other that Atmos) light come on, if i select auto or pcm i get white light, not Dolby, but sounds good,lol though if Atmos it will do Atmos on auto, so sort of confused here, i been told that pcm is the best option.

some input would help as dont no which do i select, leave it on auto or change every time dependant on movie? Earc selected if makes any difference

PXL-20231109-134426742.jpg
Click to expand...

Broadly speaking, PCM comes in three flavours:
  • stereo PCM (with or without Dolby Surround as decoded by Pro-Logic / Pro-Logic II / or the Dolby Atmos upscaler)
  • multichannel PCM - this is useful where some piece of gear doesn't have decoding for DTS / Dolby True-HD / DTS-HD Master Audio
  • hi-resolution stereo PCM - for music in master quality (better than CD, and as good or better than SACD)
Examples of where you'll find these formats:

Stereo PCM - broadcast TV that isn't in Dolby Digital. This would be most of the standard definition channels, and programmes such as quiz shows, news, studio-based stuff. 2-channel digital music.

Multichannel PCM - games consoles and gaming PCs, multichannel music source (SACD, DVD-A)

Hi-res stereo PCM - premium subscription music streaming

The above doesn't cover everything, and there are bound to be some exceptions, but it's a reasonable start

Is PCM the best option?
In a word, no, but there's a caveat or two.

If we rephrase the question as "which audio format will work with everything and is least likely to give me lip sync errors?" - then the answer is PCM (stereo PCM). From a certain and rather selective point of view PCM is indeed 'the best' option. However, this is setting the bar to the lowest point.

Where the gear you have is capable of doing surround, and you want to hear the audio with the best separation between the various channels, then you'll want Auto. This will allow the sound bar to adapt to the incoming audio signal, be it PCM, Dolby Digital, or DD+ which is how a lot of streaming source Atmos audio is delivered.

Here's something to note. The lights are going to change as you watch different content. They'll even change as you watch a linear-broadcast HD channel break for adverts.

The catch?
It's the chance that words and picture will be out of sync with DD content. This is partly a problem from the broadcaster's end, and partly a settings issue with TVs. The TV settings issue relates to the TV's picture processing. The more features you enable and the more aggressive the settings of the contrast enhancement, the sharpness enhancement, the motion smoothing, the dynamic doo-dah sparkly thing, the colour rainbow sprinkles shaker and all of the rest of the junk that loads up a picture with excessive processing overheads then the longer the picture is delayed relative to the audio.

What difference does eARC make?
When your audio gear is ARC, nothing. Everything defaults to ARC level. Audio source signals can be Stereo PCM, plain DD or DD+. You might get DTS support if the TV features it. Many don't. That's not really much of a problem though as broadcast and streaming doesn't go beyond DD+ at the moment.
 
lucid
Click to expand...


I my SB has TRUEHD, apart from usual DD n ATMOS but no DTS decoding strangely. But will leave it on auto. Even got a certified 2.1 cable as was told you need it for EARC. When I had it, it was set to auto but I had to have a play with settings
Thx.


you make the impossible easier to understand. You're a star
 
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