Admin charges for an unpaid invoice I didn't receive...?

Dano · 22 Jun 2022 at 13:15

Rainmaker said:
Mail sent by regular first class post is deemed served for legal purposes, no proof required. That said, whether you have to pay in your particular case is another matter. Check the terms of your contract and seek legal advice, because IANAL and probably YANAL and everyone else here INAL and if they are they won't tell you for free anyway.

How can it be deemed legally served with no proof it was posted other than them saying it was posted? Anybody could 'legally serve' whatever they like just by claiming they sent it first class, surely at the very least proof of first class postage is needed?

OP - had the same with my estate management company, no invoice received and the alleged second one had a late fee attached, was told it would stay on file but they would not chase payment for it and argued that the schedule of charges was in my info pack, they were exceedingly stroppy with me about it from the very start, it turned out my solicitor had failed to provide me the full pack, useless.

Rainmaker · 22 Jun 2022 at 13:53

Dano said:
How can it be deemed legally served with no proof it was posted other than them saying it was posted? Anybody could 'legally serve' whatever they like just by claiming they sent it first class, surely at the very least proof of first class postage is needed?

Civil procedure rules 6.26:

CPR said:
6.26 A document, other than a claim form, served within the United Kingdom in accordance with these Rules or any relevant practice direction is deemed to be served on the day shown in the following table –

1. First class post (or other service which provides for delivery on the next business day) The second day after it was posted, left with, delivered to or collected by the relevant service provider provided that day is a business day; or
if not, the next business day after that day.

wildman · 22 Jun 2022 at 13:57

ask them where their head office is and if it has a letterbox ?

dowie · 22 Jun 2022 at 14:03

I'd just pay the £270 that you owe, check with citizens advice or similar but at least with ground rent etc.. if they try and tag on a late fee there isn't really anything they can do about it if it's not covered in the lease and/or is below a certain amount.

Rainmaker said:
Civil procedure rules 6.26:

You can ask for proof of postage with first-class, it doesn't have to be recorded delivery for someone to prove they posted it (rather than necessarily proving the OP received it).

Rainmaker · 22 Jun 2022 at 14:05

dowie said:
You can ask for proof of postage with first-class, it doesn't have to be recorded delivery for someone to prove they posted it (rather than necessarily proving the OP received it).

Certainly, but that's not what we're talking about. The company here didn't request proof of postage, so it's moot. I simply pointed out that the law considers documents served the second day after if sent first class, whether you received it or not. Everyone knows RM is hardly infallible, but the assumption is if it was posted then you received it. I only pointed this out in response to someone saying to go nuclear because it wasn't sent special delivery with a Facebook live stream of the OP taking delivery.

BUDFORCE · 22 Jun 2022 at 14:07

These companies are horrendous.

Rainmaker · 22 Jun 2022 at 14:07

BUDFORCE said:
These companies are horrendous.

Much like private parking enforcement, insurers, banks and other such entities, likely a huge portion of their actual profit comes from 'admin fees'.

Haggisman · 22 Jun 2022 at 14:28

Rainmaker said:
Certainly, but that's not what we're talking about. The company here didn't request proof of postage, so it's moot. I simply pointed out that the law considers documents served the second day after if sent first class, whether you received it or not. Everyone knows RM is hardly infallible, but the assumption is if it was posted then you received it. I only pointed this out in response to someone saying to go nuclear because it wasn't sent special delivery with a Facebook live stream of the OP taking delivery.

All of which is irrelevant if they have no proof they posted it at all - claiming to have done something is not evidence of having done so.

If you really want to troll them, you could claim to have posted a cheque to them for the payment, and point out that if their claim of postage is sufficient "evidence" that they did so, then so is yours

I wouldn't bother with the wordy second and third paragraphs in that response, you don't need to justify anything to them unless they can prove they sent the invoices. I'd go with short and to the point.

"Unless you are able to provide evidence that the invoice was posted to me at the correct address, I now consider the matter closed. Any further communication on this matter will incur a £60 admin fee, and continuing to contact me will indicate acceptance of these terms."

Rainmaker · 22 Jun 2022 at 14:29

Haggisman said:
All of which is irrelevant if they have no proof they posted it at all.

If you really want to troll them, you could claim to have posted a cheque to them for the payment, and point out that if their claim of postage is sufficient "evidence" that they did so, then so is yours

Now you're getting your head in the game.

I didn't say they were in the right, or that I wouldn't play silly buggers. I simply pointed out that 'it wasn't sent recorded delivery' doesn't matter. Doesn't stop you playing Uno Reverse!

Transform_IT · 22 Jun 2022 at 15:00

replied:

Good afternoon,

I sent the £270.00 payment on Monday, 20/06/2022, following receipt of the letter I received on Friday, 17/06/2022. This should be in your account; please let me know if it hasn't arrived.

As previously stated, I haven't received any previous requests regarding this invoice/payment. During the period you claim these requests have been sent, I have been in touch with your office via phone and email for the past several months while undergoing remortgage, and not once has it been mentioned this payment was outstanding. In answer to your comment stating the following: I understand that you state you have not received any correspondence from us but from our point of view we cannot see why you wouldn't have received it if we have the correct address for you and numerous letters have been sent and received. I don't believe that is a satisfactory response, considering the pressures and stress Royal Mail have been under recently and the staff shortages they are still facing, which has left thousands of parcels and letters undelivered.

You talk about reducing the admin fee from £60.00 to £30.00 as a gesture of goodwill - I am unsure what you mean by a gesture of goodwill? Are these charges and costs detailed in the management contract - if so, please provide details and proof that you have the authority to make these claims and charges (even if I haven't received previous invoices, which you claim were sent)? As you will be aware, demands for payment of an Administration Fee must be (by law) accompanied by a 'summary of the tenant's rights and obligations. If no such summary is included, I am legally entitled to withhold payment of such administration charge (albeit you have already reduced the admin fee as a gesture of goodwill?). This is stated in Schedule 11 of the Commonhold and Leasehold Reform Act 2002. You are spending excessive amounts of time emailing me regarding this, and spending so much time makes me question if a percentage of the annual charge is to cover these administration charges. Whilst I don't typically charge for my time, as I am extremely busy with work/life, should you continue to request payment of an admin charge, for every response I send, I, too, will be invoicing for administration charges.

Kind regards,

Transform_IT · 22 Jun 2022 at 15:02

Haggisman said:
All of which is irrelevant if they have no proof they posted it at all - claiming to have done something is not evidence of having done so.

If you really want to troll them, you could claim to have posted a cheque to them for the payment, and point out that if their claim of postage is sufficient "evidence" that they did so, then so is yours

I wouldn't bother with the wordy second and third paragraphs in that response, you don't need to justify anything to them unless they can prove they sent the invoices. I'd go with short and to the point.

"Unless you are able to provide evidence that the invoice was posted to me at the correct address, I now consider the matter closed. Any further communication on this matter will incur a £60 admin fee, and continuing to contact me will indicate acceptance of these terms."

depending on their reply - I will send that response back.

Thanks

booyaka · 22 Jun 2022 at 15:05

Far too much text in the response.

Simply could have said.

"I've sent £270 for invoice number xxxx, and consider this now paid.

I will not be paying any admin fee and should you wish to contest this - please contact my solicitor at....." (even if you don't have one - they won't bother chasing it up)

They won't bother over a £60 admin fee.

dowie · 22 Jun 2022 at 15:14

@Transform_IT can you ask them to send future invoices electronically? Their suggestion that they send them recorded at cost to you is silly when e-mail exists.

Rainmaker said:
I simply pointed out that the law considers documents served the second day after if sent first class, whether you received it or not. Everyone knows RM is hardly infallible, but the assumption is if it was posted then you received it. I only pointed this out in response to someone saying to go nuclear because it wasn't sent special delivery with a Facebook live stream of the OP taking delivery.

Ah fair enough, and I think that's a reasonable assumption tbh. as 99%+ of them probs do get delivered.

Haggisman · 22 Jun 2022 at 16:10

dowie said:
@Transform_IT can you ask them to send future invoices electronically? Their suggestion that they send them recorded at cost to you is silly when e-mail exists.

Ah fair enough, and I think that's a reasonable assumption tbh. as 99%+ of them probs do get delivered.

Which is fair enough, and why most reasonable companies will also send at least 1 reminder before they start demanding late fees.

However, as @Rainmaker alludes to, easy enough to artificially inflate profits by claiming to have sent an invoice, no reminder, and then demanding an extra £60 ~~for the Christmas party bar tab~~ admin fee

Siliconslave · 22 Jun 2022 at 16:11

bit late now but could have just said

"I sent the payment within the agreed time frame, but from our point of view we cannot see why you wouldn't have received it if we have the correct address for you and numerous ~~letters~~ payments have been sent and received."

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior · 22 Jun 2022 at 16:29

If its like the way our estate is run you will have had to join the joint management group when you bought.
This is then farmed out to an estate management company.
As such your not a tenant but in fact a joint owner. As such anything to do with tenants rights is invalid.

We forgot to pay our estate bill once and received an equally annoying threat for an admin fee. I think its their standard terms, they do I believe also actually deal with tenants and as such they do try to add for all sorts of thing.

Ours are useless. There was a bill for £4k on the accounts for the low rise flats (only a block of 6) that fall within our "sector" (for want of a better word) which is for communal lighting. I queried how this was possible and that they needed to look into that as it was basically impossible.
They came back with "we cannot discuss this with you as its not your address". Morons.
At some point I am thinking to look to insource this to the actual residents, just need to achieve enough but many are let to yanks so its hard to get to know the actual owners.
The annual bill is something like £25k. Of that about £5k is actual services (gardening and utils) and the rest is management fees, directors insurance, audit fees, postage costs, admin fees etc etc

dowie · 22 Jun 2022 at 16:43

Haggisman said:
Which is fair enough, and why most reasonable companies will also send at least 1 reminder before they start demanding late fees.

However, as @Rainmaker alludes to, easy enough to artificially inflate profits by claiming to have sent an invoice, no reminder, and then demanding an extra £60 ~~for the Christmas party bar tab~~ admin fee

Well in this case they can't even prove they posted it so it seems a bit moot.

dowie · 22 Jun 2022 at 16:47

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
Ours are useless. There was a bill for £4k on the accounts for the low rise flats (only a block of 6) that fall within our "sector" (for want of a better word) which is for communal lighting. I queried how this was possible and that they needed to look into that as it was basically impossible.
They came back with "we cannot discuss this with you as its not your address". Morons.

Yeah, that's definitely sus, at mine anyone can review the annual accounts in more detail than the overview we get sent annually if they really want to. One of the aims of the directors is to reduce bills, switch providers etc.. if necessary. A few years ago some affiliate company of the managing agents was providing security for example and were useless, they got sacked off. Lots of these managing agents will seemingly just go with other companies they have a relationship with if they're not kept in check by owner directors on the board of the actual management company.

Malevolence · 22 Jun 2022 at 17:29

Having never lived in a new build *spit* or on an estate, are these sort of schemes mandatory or can you opt not to sign up to them when you buy your property? Smacks of legalised 'extortion' to me.

|Thomas| · 22 Jun 2022 at 17:48

Malevolence said:
Having never lived in a new build *spit* or on an estate, are these sort of schemes mandatory or can you opt not to sign up to them when you buy your property? Smacks of legalised 'extortion' to me.

They are compulsory, they're typically a covenant on the TP1 form (or whatever the land registry form is called).

Pretty much agree with you, they're less scammy than leaseholds and ground rent but they're not great. Certainly in my area I don't know a house builder that doesn't do this.