Advice Required - Resignation/Reference

[wndsr]

Can you give an example?

I'm finding it difficult to grasp why, if your role involved a lot of travel, this wasn't taken care of for you (in terms of hotel bookings, flights etc.) by secretarial staff.

Were you left stranded by work in a foreign country with no return flight booked, and were thus forced to walk into a hotel and book a stay? Do you have a policy in place for situations like that were you pay and claim reimbursement? It's a little hard to work out why any situation(s) involving legitimate business needs could lead to something of these proportions.

I could see a situation, for example, where you were on the other side of the country with a group of co-workers for the day, and they decided to hit the town on Friday night. You decided to join them, and being too far away from home would require a hotel. So you book one. On the company. This would be a mistake as it hasn't been approved, otherwise one would have already been arranged. However, in that situation I would also expect return travel to have been arranged prior by the company for the end of your trip. So, in this situation you would have had to had abandoned your arranged return travel in order to claim a hotel stay to go out on the lash... all on the excuse that if it weren't for the company, you wouldn't have been there.

I hope I'm a million miles away from the truth.

One example was how I was invited to attend a dinner event in London to pick up an award at the Grosvenor Hotel. Getting back to Manchester that evening would have been impossible given the distance so I booked a local hotel at the corporate rate.

With regards to the budget it was coming out of, there was meant to be a 'Budget Committee' that had to agree on spend prior to committing but this was never strictly implemented despite it being a requirement of an Executive.

The four people on the Committee, of which I was one would meet and review budget requests and decide collaboratively. As one person in particular - the person who I believe has instigated this whole issue - would routinely self-approve thousands of pounds worth of spend. Whether it be drinks, corporate sponsorship or travel, this person would routinely approve on her own without consulting other members of the committee.

It was on this basis that I believed that (a) as I had never had sight of the travel policy, I didn't know that there was a procedure to follow (b) as we both had an equal position on the budget committee and she was self-approving amounts well into their thousands, I was unaware that my actions were wrong.

Hope I've been able to explain this.

 

[holymonk]

I'd recommend a specialist employment lawyer.

 

[wndsr]

@holymonk - Have already started discussions with a lawyer in London who a number of friends have recommended. He seems spot on, but I guess they all do when they want some notes.

He is going to write to the company now and see if he can nudge them into changing their mind.

 

[wndsr]

Just picked up todays post and have a letter from the company stating they will debit £1400 from my bank account before the 18th October.

Fabulous.

 

[Pestilence]

Sounds like it's full-on lawyer time, I'm afraid. Stick with the guy you've been introduced to so far.

At least you have a further claim for hardship and financial loss from them now.

 

[AS_Platinum]

Just picked up todays post and have a letter from the company stating they will debit £1400 from my bank account before the 18th October.

Fabulous.

Do they have "in writing" your permission to remove funds from your account?

Also, good luck, seems quite a pickle you're in

 

[DanielMMS]

Bit torn on this one. Perhaps I am misunderstanding but, reading through the London awards scenario, you seem to be stating that you were fully aware of the existence of a committee (of which you were a member) holding responsibility for approving the expenditure you incurred yet chose to ignore this on the basis that someone else had done likewise. If that is correct, it would be fairly difficult to argue that you had not knowingly acted contrary to company (Coop, perhaps) policy.

That said, if you can honestly prove that each item of expenditure was incurred for exclusively business purposes then it would be deeply misguided of your employer to continue to make accusations of fraud - indeed, it is potentially defamatory. Hopefully your solicitor will do a little more than nudge.

 

[wndsr]

Sounds like it's full-on lawyer time, I'm afraid. Stick with the guy you've been introduced to so far.

At least you have a further claim for hardship and financial loss from them now.

Well exactly. I've just emptied my accounts and moved everything to my alternative account. If they chase me for funds I'll simply state I'll be taking legal action.

Do they have "in writing" your permission to remove funds from your account?

Also, good luck, seems quite a pickle you're in

Unless there is something in my contract that I signed at the start of employment, then no. It is usual practice to ask employees to sign a debit authority form when leaving the Bank but as I have not been in to work since my investigation meeting this was not possible.

A Union friend of mine has advised me that unless I have signed that form, I am a customer like any other and they can't just debit my account. Although that said there is probably something in my normal account T&C that gives the bank permission.

Bit torn on this one. Perhaps I am misunderstanding but, reading through the London awards scenario, you seem to be stating that you were fully aware of the existence of a committee (of which you were a member) holding responsibility for approving the expenditure you incurred yet chose to ignore this on the basis that someone else had done likewise. If that is correct, it would be fairly difficult to argue that you had not knowingly acted contrary to company (Coop, perhaps) policy.

That said, if you can honestly prove that each item of expenditure was incurred for exclusively business purposes then it would be deeply misguided of your employer to continue to make accusations of fraud - indeed, it is potentially defamatory. Hopefully your solicitor will do a little more than nudge.

Apologies for the confusion here - the London scenario was from January (I have questioned why it's now suddenly been raised as an issue considering somebody would have had to review cost centre reports monthly and especially quarterly so it definitely would have been seen) - this was before the creation of the budget committee in April.

 

[Dave M]

Bit torn on this one. Perhaps I am misunderstanding but, reading through the London awards scenario, you seem to be stating that you were fully aware of the existence of a committee (of which you were a member) holding responsibility for approving the expenditure you incurred yet chose to ignore this on the basis that someone else had done likewise. If that is correct, it would be fairly difficult to argue that you had not knowingly acted contrary to company (Coop, perhaps) policy.

I'm no lawyer, but I'd expect them to run into difficulty punishing him for not following a company policy that nobody in the company follows. Certainly if he is singled out for not following it.

 

[hurfdurf]

IMHO, your offer to refund the money out of your own pocket is an admission of guilt, not following the policy aside, i wouldn't have been offering to refund anything!

I wouldn't have resigned, i would have waited to be sacked, then taken my case up via a tribuneral, provided you can prove you hadn't been given training in the correct procedure.

This.

Also, a lesson to everyone about why they should be in their union from the start. Unions are amazing for workers. I imagine he would have been completely let off had he been in the union. HR do not work for the employee, they are there to make sure the company does not get in trouble and are equally as out to get you as any vampire capitalist.

 

[wndsr]

I'm no lawyer, but I'd expect them to run into difficulty punishing him for not following a company policy that nobody in the company follows. Certainly if he is singled out for not following it.

Exactly, and I can evidence times when there the policy has not been followed on various occasions. I wonder if the 'extent' of the breach has an impact? There are times when minor breaches have took place then others when an approval system have been missed out entirely.

This.

Also, a lesson to everyone about why they should be in their union from the start. Unions are amazing for workers. I imagine he would have been completely let off had he been in the union. HR do not work for the employee, they are there to make sure the company does not get in trouble and are equally as out to get you as any vampire capitalist.

Second this entirely. I've never had to deal with a Union before but my 'off the record' chats with them have been fantastic.

 

[Westyfield2]

If only there was a way to join the union and pay your fees for the legal advice, but not have the union get involved in politics (so really a legal cover insurance policy).

 

[The_Abyss]

Take some professional advice, for goodness sake.

Some things about this don't feel right though. Considering resignation on a feeling that there could be a dismissal? Going through lines and lines of hotel bookings, but only referencing one night's booking for an awards do? Sitting on the Budget Committee but not knowing the governance for approval of expenditure?

It feels like there's a very significant something missing.

 

[Voltage]

pretty crappy thing to happen but im afraid to say you have left yourself in a right pickle.

resigning was the worst thing you could have done (or even mentioning the word resignation).

to be honest, its clear they wanted rid of you and engineered a method of getting you out with no compensation........nasty........but becoming all too frequent.

if you have over 2 years of employment with the firm then you can take them to industrial tribunal but even if you win you will still have a major issue with reference.

my condolences for this to happen to you.

 

[Haggisman]

pretty crappy thing to happen but im afraid to say you have left yourself in a right pickle.

resigning was the worst thing you could have done (or even mentioning the word resignation).

to be honest, its clear they wanted rid of you and engineered a method of getting you out with no compensation........nasty........but becoming all too frequent.

if you have over 2 years of employment with the firm then you can take them to industrial tribunal but even if you win you will still have a major issue with reference.

my condolences for this to happen to you.

Surely if he was to take them to tribunal and win, they'd be very careful with giving a reference, as they'd have been proven to be in the wrong?

 

[beh]

If only there was a way to join the union and pay your fees for the legal advice, but not have the union get involved in politics

Some unions do give you a choice, Unison for example, "you can choose whether to pay a proportion of your subs into the affiliated political fund (Labour Link), the general political fund (GPF), both, or neither."

It feels like there's a very significant something missing.

to be honest, its clear they wanted rid of you

Aye.

 

[Leprechaun312]

does sound like a bit of strange situation, seems your employer has it in for you and is finding every breach in policy he can find to remove you. Keep seeking legal advice, try and fight them on this. I do agree it does sound like somethings missing, however i feel like you have been working one day and suddenly been told that your being taken to court over doing your job correctly and have acted in a state of shock. Point out how can they take disciplinary against you when they don't even follow company policy, otherwise good luck

 

[PapaLazaru]

Reading through all this just makes me think there is more to this story. Their stance sounds incredibly harsh and not a stance that they should be able to get away with with current employment law. Op has stuck their foot right in it but there must have been previous warnings about conduct.

 

[Catanonia]

All communications to the HR / Bank should be recorded and through your solicitor. Once they get thier teeth in, they will stop playing bully boy and play seriously and follow the rules.

HR don't give a **** about you, they are there to protect the company.

I had a similar problem in my last job, not on fraud, but about my work.

I fought them tooth for tooth and digged out all of the dirt on my boss who was trying to get rid of me. (Nice I never delete anything).

Ended up with these options

1. Ignore it
2. Sack me = Court
3. Sack my boss for trying to consistently get rid of me and breach of data.
4. Payup and i leave quietly.

They went with option 4 and I am now contracting for their largest customer.

Good luck, get your solicitors to earn thier wedge.

 

[RedvGreen]

I'm no lawyer, but I'd expect them to run into difficulty punishing him for not following a company policy that nobody in the company follows. Certainly if he is singled out for not following it.

The difficulty comes when they have planted/prompted colleagues who will say "Yes, I was trained... and i'm pretty sure Mr. X was there too".

Legalistically, I would advise that you have a frank discussion with your elected legal advocate. They key thing to stress at this early stage is...

What do you want to achieve at the end of it?


Do you want a healthy no-admission-of-guilt-payout?
Do you want your job back, but under the potential unfair scrutiny whilst you work?
Do you want to be redeployed?


Just as they can play the 'You were trained, we just can't prove it' card, you can play the 'I didn't offer to pay for costs' card.


Just to reiterate earlier points though, your conduct in this matter, whilst presumably honorable and well-intentioned, only serves to make you appear to be guilty in the eyes of a third party.