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AGEIA respond to ATI physics..not with benchmarks but with excuses

ihatelag said:
*edit* Ahhh just read you ran it in software mode ...still waiting for physx to do something then? :p

Yeah im not buying a physx card until its worth buying (if it ever is).

I was just stating that they've added support for the cloth flag in software mode and a CPU just cant cut it! Not even getting 1 fps on my opty whereas with the physx hardware its much much smoother! So the cards are doing something. I do think there is a lot of wasted potential we just havnt seen yet, only time will tell.
 
Pottsey said:
How do you know its Ageia who have made a bad implementation?
It’s too early to tell, I mean it could be Ageia but we don’t know for sure. What if they have a great implementation and it’s the early software that’s at fault.

We know AGEIA have made a bad implementation, when we saw that we could run physics in software mode with greater or equal visual physics performance.

Shouldn’t you then be telling the software developers to pull there product not Ageia?

Learn about how physics is developed in games using PhysX. Why is it not the game developers fault? - because they use the NovadeX environment provided by AGEIA to incorportate PhysX in the games.

As Ageia them self’s say the first few games hardly use any of the PPU’s power and where only patched to support it. We need to see a game made from scratch to support it.

Excuse me? When you develop games you don't just "add on" a bit of functionality like physX you have to add in a lot of development (using the dev tool above) to implement it. Definately a problem with AGEIA (with their NovadeX development environment), not the game developers.

Why should game developers have to work extra hours trying to patch something that is most certainly a fault with AGEIA. Kudos to AGEIA though..they are making patches which is slowly making things better. Let's hope they can keep working alongside developers to see what else can be done to help improve the results from future game releases.

Still...PhysX is not worth its value at the moment...it is definately worth the wait until Nvidia and ATI physics solutions become mainstream.
 
Pottsey said:
“Eh i don't have a problem, no one rubbishes their own products do they. ”
But I have proven time and time again that I don’t work for Ageia. I have said bad things about Ageia so will you finally admit I don’t work for them or is it just convenient for you to ignore all my facts and accuse me of working for them instead of having a decent conversation?

It seems a lot of people around here instead of admit they got something wrong or if they dont want to hear something choose to accuse people of working for the revile company and then they write off everything that persons says as invalid even when it’s true.




“ageia needs to go bankrup and learn the hard way that if they are gonna be a bunch of faggots and pull out a crap implementation of physics then they deserve to get slapped for it.
i mean how could they even pull out this product on the market? im sure people normally test their own final product before mass manufacturing and retailing.”

How do you know its Ageia who have made a bad implementation? It’s too early to tell, I mean it could be Ageia but we don’t know for sure. What if they have a great implementation and it’s the early software that’s at fault. Shouldn’t you then be telling the software developers to pull there product not Ageia? As Ageia them self’s say the first few games hardly use any of the PPU’s power and where only patched to support it. We need to see a game made from scratch to support it.

I am the only one that thinks we need to find out where the problem lies before writing of the PPU? This is no different from the first 3Dcards, the first games where rubbish 6months later the decent games came out and the cards become usefull. I hope Ageia PPU is the same.

Guy, the decision to take these cards to market with support for 1 game was Aegia's decision. Not software's. You really need to stop with your fanboy nonsense. Its one thing to make points but all you seem to do is "bold quote" people and generally stir the pot. Nothing you have said in defence of these cards changes the fact that

A. Aegia cant compete with ATI or Nvidia. (I know you will tell me they can, but they cant.)


B. I very seriously doubt, after all the negative press Aegia has had that ATI/Nvidia will make the same mistakes.

C. THERE ARE NO GAMES FOR THIS CARD (except GRAW)

D. It is way overpriced.

Come back and post when this Aegia sham has something remotely interesting to offer. For the moment it isnt even worth arguing about. You like to talk about your facts Pottsey, well here is "fact C" again.

C. THERE ARE NO GAMES FOR THIS CARD (except GRAW)

S
 
The biggest dealbraker for ageia is the fact that there card needs a pci slot in which there simply arnt enough of on any modern board. By the time you have your dual gfx cards and soundcards in theres no room for anything else. Matters are made worse when those non supported pcie 1x ports are placed where free pci slots should be.

Ageai need to be a co processor solution that can be placed on the gfx card to get anywhere or maybe be the first pci 1x card that might have a use.
 
If the ATI 3 card solution is the one that needs 2+1 Pci-e slots then it might not even happen according to the Inquirer. Even if it did they would have to create a new motherboard format or you would have no pci slots for sound cards etc. My Sli board is bad enough. That only leaves one available slot with both Pci-e graphics slots occupied.
 
“We know AGEIA have made a bad implementation, when we saw that we could run physics in software mode with greater or equal visual physics performance.”
When software has equal visual physics as the Ageia PPU provides then software gets 1FPS while the PPU gives us playable FPS. How does that prove Ageia have a bad implementation? Not only that but even without the cloth effects the software minimum FPS is up to 50% less then the Ageia PPU depending on the situation.



“Learn about how physics is developed in games using PhysX. Why is it not the game developers fault? - because they use the NovadeX environment provided by AGEIA to incorportate PhysX in the games.”
When a game has poorly coded graphic or graphic effects are rushed and turn out poor you don’t blame directX or OpenGL you blame the developers not using the API correctly. Yet when the developers rush’s and adds the NovadeX PhysX API in at the last minuet giving basic effects you blame Ageia? Is that really fair? That seems like a double standard to me.

Now if the next 10 games come out with a bad physics then I will agree with you there’s something wrong with the API, but you can never judge an API with the first few games to use it. Right now 4 games do not mean its Ageia fault as it could be the developers fault. It’s too early to tell. But it is something we need to watch closely.




“When you develop games you don't just "add on" a bit of functionality like physX you have to add in a lot of development (using the dev tool above) to implement it. Definately a problem with AGEIA (with their NovadeX development environment), not the game developers.”
Yes you do add a bit of functionality without lots of development. It’s common for patch’s or games late in development to get a bit of functionality like physX implanted instead of a full functionality and only a small amount of development time spent on the new feature. Unless the game developers got hold of the PPU from the start of development they have no choice but to add limited functionality due to time constraints. Ghost Recon appears to fall into the category of physics where added late into development so only a bit of functionality was added.




“Why should game developers have to work extra hours trying to patch something that is most certainly a fault with AGEIA.”
Why? Because you’re just making up that it’s certainly a fault with AGEIA. There is nothing to indicate that it is or isn’t there fault. If it was there fault I don’t think 60+ developers would be working with them. If it was as poor as you say they would have 5devlopers if that.

Also new features require time to learn how to do correctly. Look at the first T&L games, first pixel shaders 2 or pixel shaders 3 games, first bump mapping the list goes on. When ever something new comes out developers have to spend hours learning how to do it. The same will also apply to Nvidia and ATI GPU physics. I don’t expect the first gamer to be anywhere near a stunning as the later games.


“Guy, the decision to take these cards to market with support for 1 game was Aegia's decision. Not software's.”
I agree and I never said otherwise. Ageia bought out the PPU a month or two to early. They should have had more game support. But is it Ageia fault what about the games which where meant to be out but got delayed or if the game came out without support when they where told it would have support? Rise of Nations spring to mind that was meant to be out with support but instead we have to wait for a patch now.




“A. Aegia cant compete with ATI or Nvidia. (I know you will tell me they can, but they cant.)”
ATI perhaps can compete but Nvidia? Please explain how Nvidia's basic next to useless physics can compete? I explain why Nvidia cannot compete I don’t see you countering my facts. Prove my facts wrong or explain why they can compete please.

Aegia have 60 developers with support and lots of games coming out this year. ATI and Nvidia have 2 developers and 0 game due out this year so far. I call that competing very well.



“Pottsey, well here is "fact C" again.
C. THERE ARE NO GAMES FOR THIS CARD (except GRAW)”

Well GRAW and all the other games I have installed with PPU support. But I guess they don’t count for some unknown reason. But I do agree there are not enough games out luckily that will change with time as a lot are due out this year. 4 games with PPU support is not enough they need to get at least 10+ and sooner rather then later.



“ You really need to stop with your fanboy nonsense. Its one thing to make points but all you seem to do is "bold quote" people and generally stir the pot..”
You’re the one with fanboy nonsense and who’s trying to stir the pot. I explained why in detail I think Nvidia will fail. Yet all I get in reply from you is “Aegia cant compete with ATI or Nvidia. (I know you will tell me they can, but they cant.)”
No explanations, no facts or anything. How are Nivida going to get around the massive flaws in there GPU physics solution? I will listen if you explain why they will not fail and explain how they will get around their physic flaws. Its not something I made up. Go read up on there solution.
 
As with anything time will tell. To be honest, when i first heard of the Physx card i was impressed and thought any offloading of the cpu would be a bonus. Its the first revision and stuff needs time, i like the fact that ATI/Nvidia are trying the same attempts. However you have to ask yourself, would they have even bothered to attempt the physics on the GPU had the Physx card not shown up in the first place.

Patients is all we need, just a simple case of not buying until the hardware has matured. Me i love the idea of physix, but with crysis showing what is capable of doing without these added cards will make most people question its need. Either way, they are here to stay, even if it remains ATI/Nvida
 
Silver21uk said:
Lol fat fingers, or plain stupid, lol no doctor, should check me spelling lol

Just pulling your leg mate, and I completely agree, with a bit of time we'll start to see which solution is best, no point arguing about it until we see the tech being useful.
 
Wow..definately a AGEIA fanboy or employee...no way can you be saying such things unless you work for them (even though you keep denying it :) ) None of your points hold water.


Pottsey said:
When software has equal visual physics as the Ageia PPU provides then software gets 1FPS while the PPU gives us playable FPS. How does that prove Ageia have a bad implementation? Not only that but even without the cloth effects the software minimum FPS is up to 50% less then the Ageia PPU depending on the situation.

It's 1 fps for cloth effects.... We have tested the game for visual physics performance. Interaction of objects is the main functional point of a PPU. It failed to deliver in distinguishing an advantage to use a PPU.

When a game has poorly coded graphic or graphic effects are rushed and turn out poor you don’t blame directX or OpenGL you blame the developers not using the API correctly. Yet when the developers rush’s and adds the NovadeX PhysX API in at the last minuet giving basic effects you blame Ageia? Is that really fair? That seems like a double standard to me.

Forget graphics, we're talking about physics. Graphics effects and how objects interact with physics are two separate things. No developer will rush a something as huge as adding physics effects. Your point holds many flaws again. :(

Now if the next 10 games come out with a bad physics then I will agree with you there’s something wrong with the API, but you can never judge an API with the first few games to use it. Right now 4 games do not mean its Ageia fault as it could be the developers fault. It’s too early to tell. But it is something we need to watch closely.

That's one thing I agree with. Purchasing PhysX now with a lack of games which can demonstrate that using PhysX, will actually enhances the games physics performance, has yet to be seen.

Yes you do add a bit of functionality without lots of development. It’s common for patch’s or games late in development to get a bit of functionality like physX implanted instead of a full functionality and only a small amount of development time spent on the new feature. Unless the game developers got hold of the PPU from the start of development they have no choice but to add limited functionality due to time constraints. Ghost Recon appears to fall into the category of physics where added late into development so only a bit of functionality was added.

You sir know nothing about game development. Nothing is ever done like that.

Why? Because you’re just making up that it’s certainly a fault with AGEIA. There is nothing to indicate that it is or isn’t there fault. If it was there fault I don’t think 60+ developers would be working with them. If it was as poor as you say they would have 5devlopers if that.

Also new features require time to learn how to do correctly. Look at the first T&L games, first pixel shaders 2 or pixel shaders 3 games, first bump mapping the list goes on. When ever something new comes out developers have to spend hours learning how to do it. The same will also apply to Nvidia and ATI GPU physics. I don’t expect the first gamer to be anywhere near a stunning as the later games.

If there are no faults with AGEIA then why are AGEIA releasing patches? As I remember, the last patch fixed faults with a certain game... £10 to guess which one :)

It's good that AGEIA take notice of their flaws and they are fixing it. Hopefully when ATI's and Nvidias physics solution becomes mainstream, there should be some nice competition. Win-win for us all :)

As for your other points, they're from someone else's post, I will let that person deal with it.
 
My 2p?

Perception = Reality

So far all we see is GRAW and some half *ssed demos from Ageia. Regardless of the facts about the hardware itself, we have yet to see tangible evidence regarding the validity of the PhysX card.

Pottsey you accepted that Ageia released the card "a couple of months early", I put it to you that first impressions last, and for a company releasing a new product, surely you'd want to impress the consumers and developers alike? So IMO, the PhysX card should never have left the lab until there was a satisfactory implementation.

As long as we continue to perceive that there is nothing interesting coming from Ageias court, I believe that we are justified in accepting that this is the reality of the product.

And Pottsey, can you learn how to quote properly m8y, your posts are a little hard to read at times. ;)
 
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Ok you don't work for em then, i just find it odd that every single one of your posts is Ageias PPU, its all you are posting about, Ageia, Ageia, Ageia.
 
Really, there is no point in arguing with this guy. This thread will just deteriorate into another flame session. Its very clear that he has some vested interest in Aegia and its equally clear he has no practical concept of :

- Salesmanship
- Marketing
- Game Development

1 game, and a product launch plagued with problems and bugs is something that could potentially kill a big company. For a small company like Aegia it spells certain death.

S

PS : BAH, EQ2 down for the whole day. When will SOE learn that Europe is not on the Pacific West coast of the USA
 
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Must admit I have been reading these posts on Physx and I have to agree that
1. It was released too early
2. I get the impression that the defender of Physx has to be an employee or have vested interests in the product.
3. IMO it will be a passing fad unless games start hitting the market to give them a foothold before ATI and Nvidia blow them apart.
 
“Wow..definately a AGEIA fanboy or employee...no way can you be saying such things unless you work for them (even though you keep denying it ) None of your points hold water.”
Most of my points hold like the Nvidia one. You have yet to explain it away instead your conveniently ignoring it. AGEIA fanboy sure I can be classed as that but I don’t work for them. I work in a special needs school in Mansfield.



“It's 1 fps for cloth effects.... We have tested the game for visual physics performance. Interaction of objects is the main functional point of a PPU. It failed to deliver in distinguishing an advantage to use a PPU.”
So the CPU gets 1fps and the PPU gets 30ish or without cloth the CPU gets 12ish and the PPU 30ish and that’s what you class as the PPU not having an distinguishing advantage? What an earth is a distinguishing advantage then? It seems to me the PPU delivered what it promised no slow down with the extra physics. While the CPU with the extra physics has 50% slowdown in the minimum Frame rate without cloth and 95%+ slowdown with cloth.




“If there are no faults with AGEIA then why are AGEIA releasing patches? As I remember, the last patch fixed faults with a certain game... £10 to guess which one
AGEIA did not release any patch’s the developers released a game patch due to bad coding and bugs on there end. I don’t recall a single patch coming from AGEIA. Kind of backs up what I said about the developers being at fault.





“You sir know nothing about game development. Nothing is ever done like that.”
They are done like that and often. Sometimes new features are bolted on near the end of development and are rushed. Instead of being during or near the start of development. There are lots of examples of features being added or bolted onto the game near the end of development or in patch after the game came out. Do I really have to list examples of games adding features near the end of devolvement? Take System Shock 2 mutiplayer was adding at the last minuet via a patch. It was rushed, buggy and unstable. So features do get added at the last miniuet.



“Forget graphics, we're talking about physics. Graphics effects and how objects interact”
I wasn’t talking about graphics. I was talking about graphic API’s. I wanted to know why a game with a graphic feature that’s poor, is the developers fault not the API fault. But a poor physics feature is the API’ fault not the developers. Using different rules for different API’s is having double standards.




“And Pottsey, can you learn how to quote properly m8y, your posts are a little hard to read at times. ”
Really? I found it easier to read and others have told me that before. How many people find it harder to read and who prefers it? Send me a PM if you don’t want to spam this thread.




“Ok you don't work for em then, i just find it odd that every single one of your posts is Ageias PPU, its all you are posting about, Ageia, Ageia, Ageia.“
I guess the PowerVR posts without any mention of AGEIA don’t count then!!! I only post on what interests me PowerVR, 3DFX & AGEIA. I am sure you don’t want me posting in every single thread even the ones that have no interest to me. I also don’t post about AGEIA as much as you say. Some of my posts about AGEIA where up to 11days apart.




“1 game, and a product launch plagued with problems and bugs is something that could potentially kill a big company. For a small company like Aegia it spells certain death.”
Lets see who else started like that…. Could it be ATI and Nvidia?

Nvidia NV1 there first card was a complete disaster far worse then the Aegia PPU.



“Really, there is no point in arguing with this guy.”
I do listen to facts and there is a point. I can learn and I can admit it when I am wrong. The problem is a handful of you instead of proving me wrong choose to either call me names or say I work for Aegia. Take Nvidia I explained in detail why I believe they will fail. Not one person has proven what I say wrong instead you just tell me I work for AGEIA so I must be wrong. Now if you prove what I said about Nvidia to be wrong I will stop saying it. Telling me I work for AGEIA is not going shut me up. The only way to shut me up is if a GM tells me to or if you prove me wrong at which point I will admit I made a mistake.
 
Jesus it's pathetic companies slagging each others products off. So very boooooooooooooooooooring.
 
ok based on everything ive seen so far knock the price down to aroun £100 and i might get one :p but £200? I dont think so!
 
Kinda have to agree with you there, a while back around gforce 3, i was like ooooooooo and ahhhhhhhhhh, must have that. Got fed up with the willy waving made by companies. Its like when cousines have sex, it dont mix and the end result is plain ******ked up.

But to my confession i like physics, no matter which way they are implimented as long as it works, its cheap and is actually needed.

Will wait to see if game devs and hardware vendors actually work together to bring back the smile on my face i once had when i first heard bout the idea of the physix card. Oh how ive be shattered by the end result. Again time will tell.
 
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