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Alabama outlaws abortion . . .

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by stockhausen, May 17, 2019.

  1. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 38,895

    It isn't clear what you mean, what are you referring to - you're assuming they think it should be higher or lower?
     
  2. Freakbro

    Capodecina

    Joined: Jul 29, 2010

    Posts: 14,638

    Location: Lincs

    In most cases probably, but it can easily be 6 weeks before they know. That angle wasn't being discussed though, it was the arbitrary line based on the fetus' viability outside of the womb, even with medical intervention. And that doesn't occur in any meaningful way until after 24 weeks

    i didn't just dismiss them, I was just pointing out it wasn't as black and white as live or die

    Umm, No it isn't, it's typical hyperbole though when trying to have a rational discussion

    Eugenics : the science of improving a population by controlled breeding to increase the occurrence of desirable heritable characteristics.

    There is no genetical aspect to the determination of the viability of the fetus being made here

    I was assuming they think 24 weeks is too long, as Roar just confirmed
     
  3. Rids

    Soldato

    Joined: Sep 30, 2008

    Posts: 5,588

    You cannot possibly have said that without this being an intentional troll.

    You're suggesting that a rape victim referred to in the original post, who has been through all that trauma already, should now be forced to give herself a DIY abortion if she cannot stand the thought of raising a child conceived under those circumstances?
     
  4. Schlong&Stable

    Mobster

    Joined: Apr 27, 2013

    Posts: 3,966

    I don't agree with many of the pro-choice arguments, but I regard abortion as necessarily evil and I'd say the UK laws on abortion are pretty reasonable. That said, I've no issue with any democratic state forbidding access to abortion. That is how democracy works.
     
  5. Jumper118

    Mobster

    Joined: Oct 17, 2012

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    Location: Leeds

    Would you have agreed with the law being as it is, if rape and incest cases were allowed abortions?
     
  6. Jumper118

    Mobster

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    Posts: 4,807

    Location: Leeds

    Even If she somehowperformed the abortion herself somehow, it would still be murder.
     
  7. cheesyboy

    Capodecina

    Joined: Dec 7, 2012

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    Location: Gloucestershire

    I do think the rape and incest angle is overplayed.

    Women should be able to choose whatever the circumstances. I would consider viability to be a reasonable cutoff, not least because otherwise you'd be birthing live babies and having to then let them die to achieve 'abortion'.

    We have it close to right in this country (NI excepted), other than archaic aspects like 2 doctors having to sign off on giving the go-ahead.
     
  8. stockhausen

    Capodecina

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    Posts: 9,341

    So it may just be the case that the 25 white male Republicans are somewhat less concerned about the preservation of life than they claim ;)
     
  9. Jumper118

    Mobster

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    Location: Leeds

    I agree with alabama stance on it tbh. I don't think anyone should be killed for convenience, especially when they made a choice knowing what the consequences could be in the first place.

    But really that doesn't matter, because a child doesn't deserve to die, because their mother or father was a rapist.
     
  10. cheesyboy

    Capodecina

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    An embryo isn't a child, though. Nor is a foetus. But the mother is a real person, with real feelings and real trauma.

    If we fear the 'consequences' of sex, then should we never have sex? Most contraception is only about 95% successful annually. We no longer live in a time where 60% of babies fail to make it to adolescence.

    Where do you stand on frozen embryos?
     
  11. dowie

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jan 29, 2008

    Posts: 38,895

    ^^^ this, albeit you don't necessarily want ever decreasing "viability" as medical technologies advances... given it could tend to zero over time. The current UK cut off is perhaps around the right area. Agree re: the birthing live babies, I mean that is where it gets pretty messed up - if you end up with a live baby during an abortion procedure yet just leave it to die then it becomes a very dodgy grey area, then again the doctor performing the procedure essentially has to kill the same within the womb.

    I guess the 2 doctors thing is because we don't actually offer "abortion on demand" - though it doesn't actually require that both doctors have examined the woman, the second doctor can rely on information provided by another team member AFAIK. Interestingly we don't specifically outlaw abortion on the ground of the sex of the foetus so technically this could be a given reason if it is going to affect the mental health of the mother - then again these sorts of borderline cases might be where the requirements for two doctors might be useful.

    I guess also above 24 weeks there needs to be much stronger reasons - in reality below 24 weeks "mental health" seems to be a rather wide ranging reason and can simply include things like financial situation, future career etc.. which seems sensible enough. Beyond 24 weeks AFAIK mental health can still be cited but I'd assume there would need to be very strong reasons for it and I guess having two doctors could again be useful there.
     
  12. Jumper118

    Mobster

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    As soon as new dna is formed. It is not longer the mother, she cannot decide what to do with it until it is outside, unfortunately every time you have sex, this is the risk you take. If you take a risk like anything else in life you have to deal with it without killing anyone else.

    I have no idea about frozen embryos tbh.
    I think this debate sums up my position about 95%
    https://youtu.be/ty3c-H3EU5g
     
  13. Colonel_Klinck

    Hitman

    Joined: Oct 3, 2007

    Posts: 727

    Location: London, UK

    Can you please explain how a woman can be a rapist?

    You clearly don't know anyone well who has been raped or lack the empathy to put yourself in their position if you do. I have several friends who have been raped including an ex-girlfriend and can tell you the devastation it causes psychologically is horrific and can carry on for decades after the attack. To then force that woman to carry a foetus inside her that every time it moves or her body reacts in any way to her pregnancy it is a reminder of that rape and she might relive the event again and again is simply barbaric. PTSD isn't just for soldiers.

    It also amazes me that the religious right claim it is against their Christian values. The bible doesn't mention abortion as being wrong once, in fact it advocates it several times. It doesn't have a problem with infanticide either which is carried out multiple times in the bible.
     
  14. cheesyboy

    Capodecina

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    Frankly, the whole body horror of having something growing inside you that you would not have the choice to remove is horrific. Putting real people through that for the sake of unthinking, unfeeling 'potential' babies is sociopathic.
     
  15. Jumper118

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    Erm I'm not religious I'm atheist, I'm just not pro child killing.
    You can rage as much as you like, but like I said before you can't kill someone based on other people's actions, that is medieval.

    You have the choice of being a murderer, a child killer or not. Its as simple as that.

    For me it's the same as someone saying "well I cant afford to feed my kid this week, so I'll just cut them up and put them in a bin and that's fine, because they weren't a real kid."
     
  16. Colonel_Klinck

    Hitman

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    Location: London, UK

    The last paragraph wasn't aimed at you. The first was. I'd still like to know how a woman can be a rapist? And it isn't a "child" it's a foetus. You have to be born to be a child.

    You are calling a woman who takes the morning after pill which can still be taken after conception a murderer. Wow.
     
  17. StriderX

    Capodecina

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    A woman can rape, it’s just more effort required, more emotional entrapment and probably more violence on occasion.

    I would never say they couldn’t, a woman also can achieve this by ruining the contraception, that’s also rape in my eye.
     
  18. Jumper118

    Mobster

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    You have summed it up pretty well there. They can also use drugs to achieve this as well much like a man could on an or a women. Unfortunately in the UK we do not recognise that men can be raped by women. Any forced intercourse would be rape. As far as I am aware it is possible for a women to force a man to do something like that. Unless you think they are so weak and pathetic that this isn't possible? It is far less likely though.


    I don't often agree with StriderX, but that is a solid explanation.

    Well correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't that stop the egg going down the passage to womb. Which means the new dna is prevented from being formed?

    Also to clarify my last point an abortion is not quite as my a analogy as the doctor would have to be called to cut up the kid for the women who couldn't pay the bills.
     
  19. Thecaferacer

    Gangster

    Joined: Feb 3, 2019

    Posts: 480

    Legally a woman cannot rape. The can sexually assault or deceive which is what I think you are describing.
     
  20. Jumper118

    Mobster

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    Yes, the law is incorrect and sexist in this case, that's because the definition of rape they use under the law is based on a man penetrating someone.

    This isn't even the same as the Oxford definition which is correct "1The crime, typically committed by a man, of forcing another person to have sexual intercourse with the offender against their will."