Alder Lake-S leaks

[Destination]

Ice Lake workstation is in the middle with 36 cores and then there's Sapphire Rapids at the very top coming in 2022. B] .

Explain this to me.
Ice lake, that is 10th gen Intel, yes? The stuff that they managed on 14nm to get to 10 cores? as in the 10900K, intels most processing processor to date?
They're going to make this into a monolithic 36 core CPU?
Compatible with some chipset 680z, which uses what socket?

How do they go from 10 core to 36 cores? Is this on a size node reduction?

 

[LePhuronn]

God, don't you love Intel's Lakes and Coves? The Coves are the core architecture, the Lakes are the implementations of those cores.

Ice Lake is based on Sunny Cove cores and was used in 10th Gen mobile and Lakefield. Sunny Cove has always been 10nm process. 10th Gen desktop is Comet Lake, which is Skylake cores with some process and implementation tweaks for higher frequencies, iGPU updates and more cores bolted on, but still 14nm process.

So it's not a case of Intel suddenly jumping from 10 to 36 cores using "10th gen" because "10th gen" comprises 2 different Cove designs on 2 different processes.

There was always plans for Ice Lake server, but 10nm was so appalling Intel just couldn't get the core counts and yields up. They've managed it now so we're going to see Xeons up to 56 cores and apparently this HEDT range up to 36 cores as (yet another) interim until Golden Cove is ready (i.e. Alder Lake for desktop, Sapphire Rapids for server and presumably HEDT later on).

As for the socket, since it's HEDT it'll be something suitable massive like that hilarious LGA 3647 used for the Xeon W-3175X monstrosity.

 

[rustyk21]

that photo just shows more embarrassment for Intel.

Why is it embarrassing? Unless I've missed something it's good news isn't it?

 

[LePhuronn]

Why is it embarrassing? Unless I've missed something it's good news isn't it?

An "HEDT" platform with core counts lower than 2 generation old desktop flagship
A 2nd HEDT platform built on a 2 generation old mobile architecture with core counts barely matching their competitor's low-end HEDT parts
A 3rd, top-end HEDT platform not even due for a year that draws parity with their competition's current generation and still has a core count deficit

3 different platforms for "HEDT" with a mishmash of technologies utilised, and yet none of them will (or likely) even match AMD's current generation of product, let alone the next generation which will land roughly as Intel releases this lot.

You don't think this is embarrassing? Where do you see the good news in this? Especially when you factor in the rumour that the 56 core Ice Lake server part outperforms a 64 core EPYC Rome part. Rome. As in Zen 2.

The only glimmer of goodness is the rumour that Golden Cove draws parity with Zen 3, so when Alder Lake and Sapphire Rapids actually show up, Intel will only be a large margin behind, rather than getting curb stomped.

 

[rustyk21]

An "HEDT" platform with core counts lower than 2 generation old desktop flagship
A 2nd HEDT platform built on a 2 generation old mobile architecture with core counts barely matching their competitor's low-end HEDT parts
A 3rd, top-end HEDT platform not even due for a year that draws parity with their competition's current generation and still has a core count deficit

3 different platforms for "HEDT" with a mishmash of technologies utilised, and yet none of them will (or likely) even match AMD's current generation of product, let alone the next generation which will land roughly as Intel releases this lot.

You don't think this is embarrassing? Where do you see the good news in this? Especially when you factor in the rumour that the 56 core Ice Lake server part outperforms a 64 core EPYC Rome part. Rome. As in Zen 2.

The only glimmer of goodness is the rumour that Golden Cove draws parity with Zen 3, so when Alder Lake and Sapphire Rapids actually show up, Intel will only be a large margin behind, rather than getting curb stomped.

Ok, well I genuinely appreciate the detailed reply. I'll read up on it a bit more tomorow.

Where I was coming from was that to me it's good news that Intel are moving on and finally confirming that new architecure is on the way. Got to say, like most punters I just care about the price performance ratio. That's why I naturally question emotive language.

What do you mean by "A 2nd HEDT platform built on a 2 generation old mobile architecture with core counts barely matching their competitor's low-end HEDT part"?

 

[LePhuronn]

What do you mean by "A 2nd HEDT platform built on a 2 generation old mobile architecture with core counts barely matching their competitor's low-end HEDT part"?

Ice Lake is 10nm arch built on Sunny Cove, which was used in 10th gen mobile CPUs and Lakefield, and was superseded by Tiger Lake, which in turn is about to be replaced with Alder Lake. "Low end" was a bit of a mistype on my part because I forgot AMD never did release the rumoured-but-spotted 48 core 3980X Threadripper, so a 36 core Ice Lake HEDT chip would slightly edge out the mid-tier 3970X (and probably performance tbh if the rumoured Xeon server performance is true). But it's still only matching AMD's last gen in performance and falls very short of their top-tier 64 core Threadripper.

And Threadripper 5000/EPYC Milan isn't even out yet.

Got to say, like most punters I just care about the price performance ratio. That's why I naturally question emotive language.

Intel and price/performance ratio have rarely belonged in the same sentence (11400F + B560, baby!), which is why their catastrophic fall from grace these past few years does illicit, nay warrant, such emotive language. Besides, emotive language is indicative of passion for a subject. True, fanboyism can fall into the passion camp, but it's really the subject of a claim that warrants critical thinking, not the words used to put it out there.

Just because I described Rocket Lake at "hot garbage" and X570 as a "cluster****" doesn't make it any less so because my wording was "emotive"

 

[rustyk21]

Ice Lake is 10nm arch built on Sunny Cove, which was used in 10th gen mobile CPUs and Lakefield, and was superseded by Tiger Lake, which in turn is about to be replaced with Alder Lake. "Low end" was a bit of a mistype on my part because I forgot AMD never did release the rumoured-but-spotted 48 core 3980X Threadripper, so a 36 core Ice Lake HEDT chip would slightly edge out the mid-tier 3970X (and probably performance tbh if the rumoured Xeon server performance is true). But it's still only matching AMD's last gen in performance and falls very short of their top-tier 64 core Threadripper.

And Threadripper 5000/EPYC Milan isn't even out yet.


Intel and price/performance ratio have rarely belonged in the same sentence (11400F + B560, baby!), which is why their catastrophic fall from grace these past few years does illicit, nay warrant, such emotive language. Besides, emotive language is indicative of passion for a subject. True, fanboyism can fall into the passion camp, but it's really the subject of a claim that warrants critical thinking, not the words used to put it out there.

Just because I described Rocket Lake at "hot garbage" and X570 as a "cluster****" doesn't make it any less so because my wording was "emotive"

I see what you're saying and well put, but equally I go back to my point, all that matters is "what does it do and what does it cost". That's the only way to objectively analyse any product.
As far as CPus go, I'm sure if the tables were turned you'd say the same thing about AMD, but I read some of your posts and you seem to be going out of your way to '**** off' a faceless corporation, so it natually makes me question your objectivity.

An example of this is what you wrote above "A 2nd HEDT platform built on a 2 generation old mobile architecture with core counts barely matching their competitor's low-end HEDT part".
I mean who actually cares?

 

[Destination]

Well clearly anyone wishing to build or purchase a workstation will care, those things are big money, and if they 2 years later still can't compete whilst charging significantly more, then its time to run to the hills.

 

[humbug]

An "HEDT" platform with core counts lower than 2 generation old desktop flagship
A 2nd HEDT platform built on a 2 generation old mobile architecture with core counts barely matching their competitor's low-end HEDT parts
A 3rd, top-end HEDT platform not even due for a year that draws parity with their competition's current generation and still has a core count deficit

3 different platforms for "HEDT" with a mishmash of technologies utilised, and yet none of them will (or likely) even match AMD's current generation of product, let alone the next generation which will land roughly as Intel releases this lot.

You don't think this is embarrassing? Where do you see the good news in this? Especially when you factor in the rumour that the 56 core Ice Lake server part outperforms a 64 core EPYC Rome part. Rome. As in Zen 2.

The only glimmer of goodness is the rumour that Golden Cove draws parity with Zen 3, so when Alder Lake and Sapphire Rapids actually show up, Intel will only be a large margin behind, rather than getting curb stomped.

AMD will wait for these to land and dump Zen 3 HEDT on the market.

If Intel are trying to recapture the HEDT market it isn't going to work because people buy whatever is fastest and most efficient and that's going to be Zen 3.

 

[rustyk21]

Intel are once again claiming all sorts of performance improvements, if they don't actually materialise into much that's tangible will they lose what credibility they have?

I'm sorry but:

Sandy Bridge to Ivy Bridge claim: +15% actual +5%
Ivy Bridge to Haswell claim: +15%, actual +5%
Haswell to Kaby Lake claim: +15%, actual +15% (Hurray)
Kaby Lake to Sky Lake claim +5%, actual +5% (Well done)

Comet Lake to Rocket Lake claim +19%, actual +8% (in some cases) mostly 0%.

Compare that with AMD.

Excavator to Zen 1 claim: 40%, actual +52%
Zen 1 to Zen + claim: 10%, actual +10%
Zen 1 to Zen 2 claim: +20%, actual +20% to +30%
Zen 2 to Zen 3 claim: +20%, actual +20% to +50%


Rocket Lake to Alder Lake claim: +20%. So lets see.

I think it's fair to say that Intel quote 'best case' or 'up to' and AMD are probably quoting minimums. It's a luxury they currently have with their performance advantage. That definately makes AMD look more trustworthy than Intel, no disputing that, but I think it's complete standard practise for manufacturers to quote best case scenarios in their marketing materials.
Not defending it, just saying that it's common. That's why most people read reviews where they objectively scrutinise the claims.

I'm not sure where you're getting your figures from anyway. I just had a quick google and found this Anandtech review - https://www.anandtech.com/show/7003...performs,average performance advantage of 17%.

I can't be bothered to look at all your figures and you quote no source anyway, but one paragraph in this article states "
Quite possibly the most surprising was just how consistent (and large) the performance improvements were in our Visual Studio 2012 compile test. With a 15% increase in performance vs. Ivy Bridge at the same frequencies, what we’re looking at here is the perfect example of Haswell’s IPC increases manifesting in a real-world benchmark."

Maybe Anandtech is biased, I don't know, but that's what they showed in their testing.

By the way, I couldn't care less about Intel or AMD, I just get bored of reading all the pro and anti rhetoric, that's what motivates me to post.

 

[humbug]

I think it's fair to say that Intel quote 'best case' or 'up to' and AMD are probably quoting minimums. It's a luxury they currently have with their performance advantage. That definately makes AMD look more trustworthy than Intel, no disputing that, but I think it's complete standard practise for manufacturers to quote best case scenarios in their marketing materials.
Not defending it, just saying that it's common. That's why most people read reviews where they objectively scrutinise the claims.

I'm not sure where you're getting your figures from anyway. I just had a quick google and found this Anandtech review - https://www.anandtech.com/show/7003/the-haswell-review-intel-core-i74770k-i54560k-tested/6#:~:text=In general, I saw performance,gains were actually quite impressive.&text=The Core i7-4770K outperforms,average performance advantage of 17%.

I can't be bothered to look at all your figures and you quote no source anyway, but one paragraph in this article states "
Quite possibly the most surprising was just how consistent (and large) the performance improvements were in our Visual Studio 2012 compile test. With a 15% increase in performance vs. Ivy Bridge at the same frequencies, what we’re looking at here is the perfect example of Haswell’s IPC increases manifesting in a real-world benchmark."

Maybe Anandtech is biased, I don't know, but that's what they showed in their testing.

By the way, I couldn't care less about Intel or AMD, I just get bored of reading all the pro and anti rhetoric, that's what motivates me to post.

You care enough to point out the 17% performance increase from Sandy Bridge to Haswell. That's 2 generations.

It doesn't disprove my point that Intel are in the habit of over promising and under performing.

 

[LePhuronn]

An example of this is what you wrote above "A 2nd HEDT platform built on a 2 generation old mobile architecture with core counts barely matching their competitor's low-end HEDT part".
I mean who actually cares?

all that matters is "what does it do and what does it cost". That's the only way to objectively analyse any product.

OK, there's 2 different things going on here.

Firstly, who would care? Purchasers would care, should care, and must care if they are to spend their money wisely and maximise their returns, especially for workstation purchases. For argument's sake, let's say the rumoured performance of the 56 core Ice Lake server Xeon does indeed outperform the 64 core EPYC Rome CPU. We can loosely extrapolate then the 36 core Ice Lake HEDT chip will give the 32 core Threadripper 3970X a good beating.

So, what does it do? Beats the comparable competitor's product in performance. But does it cost more to do so? If so, how much more? Knowing Intel and their skewed pricing structures based on erroneous self-perception, that 36 core Ice Lake HEDT could easily approach the cost of the 64 core Threadripper. At which point what is the benefit of paying so much more than the 32 core Threadripper? Or could you see even greater returns by stretching the initial purchase to the 64 core Threadripper?

So that's the somewhat superficial "who actually cares" from a purchasing perspective.


The second thing, which I'm surprised you're missing, is you're participating in a community of enthusiasts who look at the bigger picture. It is not simply a case of "what does it do and what does it cost", but the actual technologies involved, the architecture, the process node, the platform, the longevity. So, who would care? Tech enthusiasts and purchasers with at least a modicum of technical knowledge would care, should care and must case.

That fact that in 2021 Intel are releasing an HEDT product range built on 2 generation-old technology yet can only draw parallel with AMD's mid-range, soon-to-be previous generation HEDT product is an issue, and yes you should care. Yeah, the 36 core Ice Lake will probably trump the 32 core 3970X, but that's too little too late because Threadripper 5000 is imminent. Knowing how Intel operate, there is unlikely to be an upgrade path for that 36 core Ice Lake, whereas the 32 core 3970X can be upgraded to a 3990X now and the 5000 series later. Plus, the process node use is an indicator how power and cooling requirements, which of course further influence purchasing decisions. That 36 core Ice Lake could be cheaper than the 32 core Threadripper, but if PSU and cooler requirements push the budget significantly past the cost of the competition, or even your place of work couldn't accommodate hot, loud and hungry workstations, then is it worth it?

And what if Intel are stuck on the same process node for years, or show no signs of improving their technology? It can take many years at datacentre and enterprise level to validate new hardware, so if AMD (for example) continue to improve their offering yet Intel are struggling to compete by being stuck on the same process node and the same underlying technology, what do you do? Do you begin the validation process for migrating to EPYC? Or do you stick with Intel because that's what you have, hoping that their roadmap shows some significant improvement in 2, 3, 5 years time?

You should care about how these components are made and how these companies create them because it asks bigger questions that should be addressed before spending your money.

This matters. Tech enthusiasts should care because this is supposedly where their passion lie. Purchasers should care because some knowledge of the bigger picture can and should influence purchasing decisions. Investors should care because it can raise red flags on future stock performance.

Ultimately, if what's going on underneath the hood of a computer isn't something you care about then perchance you're in the wrong place.

 

[LePhuronn]

I just get bored of reading all the pro and anti rhetoric, that's what motivates me to post.

But honestly, what do you actually post when you are suitably motivated? Do you counter the points being made? Do you offer your own perspectives? Somebody uses a bit of flowery language and it's the same retort from you about "emotive langauge" can't be "objective analysis" without actually contributing to the conversation.

Like I said to you before, calling Rocket Lake "hot garbage" doesn't make it any less so just because I was emotive.

Emotive language doesn't take away the 11900K's core count deficit from its previous gen counterpart, the significant memory latency regression, the increased power consumption, the multithread performance deficit, the erratic and ultimately inferior gaming performance, its price point. Emotive language doesn't detract from actual discussion points being made, nor their validity or factual nature.

Conversely, what if I described the 11400F as a "stonking little CPU" or say "she's a ******* beauty"? That's emotive language. Hell, there's even an expletive in there. And the 11400F is factually everything my emotive language described.

 

[rustyk21]

So anyway, if you two want to keep going on about how rubbish Intel are, please can you start another thread?

You're both missing the point that this one is supposed to be about Alder Lake S.

 

[rustyk21]

You care enough to point out the 17% performance increase from Sandy Bridge to Haswell. That's 2 generations.

It doesn't disprove my point that Intel are in the habit of over promising and under performing.

Seriously? That's just the text in the link. You're clutching at straws my friend.
The actual text I quoted says there is a 15% improvement from Ivy Bridge to Haswell, which is a number that you basically said Intel lied about and it was 5%. I think that's what you said.

Anyway, I've noticed that you tend to ignore evidence that goes against your beliefs so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

We both know that wasn't the point you were making, you were just asserting that intel are liars. Of course I could be wrong on that, it's just you quoted a load of numbers without data and talked about credibility.

 

[humbug]

Seriously? That's just the text in the link. You're clutching at straws my friend.
The actual text I quoted says there is a 15% improvement from Ivy Bridge to Haswell, which is a number that you basically said Intel lied about and it was 5%. I think that's what you said.

Anyway, I've noticed that you tend to ignore evidence that goes against your beliefs so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

We both know that wasn't the point you were making, you were just asserting that intel are liars. Of course I could be wrong on that, it's just you quoted a load of numbers without data and talked about credibility.

The Core i7-4770K outperforms the i7-2700K by 7 - 26%, with an average performance advantage of 17%

 

[LePhuronn]

So anyway, if you two want to keep going on about how rubbish Intel are, please can you start another thread?

You're both missing the point that this one is supposed to be about Alder Lake S.

Oh I get it, you're deflecting. And here I was excited that for once you actually started engaging with me and the discussion thread for all of 2 posts before you started the whole "emotive language" tripe, to which I responded to, clarified and retorted. But now it seems you can't actually refute anything I've said, suddenly we're all banging on about how rubbish Intel are. Nice deflection.

Funny actually, before you derailed this with your usual not-even-remotely-contributing contribution, we actually were discussing Alder Lake. I guess it's such a shame that the conversation took a negative tone because the new points of discussion in that leaked photo are embarrassing and poor. So if you want us to stop "going on" about how rubbish Intel are, then maybe, just maybe, Intel should actually stop being rubbish? Come back to the discussion in 2023 when Meteor Lake is released, because that puppy has gotten a lot of people inside Intel genuinely excited.

I do find it mildly amusing for somebody who keeps "going on" about objective thinking, emotive language, you're very quick to start making veiled accusations of fanboyism when conversations are not favourable to Intel. I've certainly not seen you counter any emotive language Dave2150 has used, for example, in prematurely and erroneously singing Rocket Lake's praises, because that puppy is as far from objective as you can possibly get. But I shan't go as far as accusing you of actually being a fanboy yourself, because I'm not that much of a child.

Assuming though it's actually possible for you to dismount your high horse, how about that Alder Lake, eh? You got anything to contribute? Or just going to do a Dg and FoxEye in show up, cry about AMD fanboys, offer nothing of substance and then **** off for a few days?

 

[rustyk21]

Oh I get it, you're deflecting. And here I was excited that for once you actually started engaging with me and the discussion thread for all of 2 posts before you started the whole "emotive language" tripe, to which I responded to, clarified and retorted. But now it seems you can't actually refute anything I've said, suddenly we're all banging on about how rubbish Intel are. Nice deflection.

Funny actually, before you derailed this with your usual not-even-remotely-contributing contribution, we actually were discussing Alder Lake. I guess it's such a shame that the conversation took a negative tone because the new points of discussion in that leaked photo are embarrassing and poor. So if you want us to stop "going on" about how rubbish Intel are, then maybe, just maybe, Intel should actually stop being rubbish? Come back to the discussion in 2023 when Meteor Lake is released, because that puppy has gotten a lot of people inside Intel genuinely excited.

I do find it mildly amusing for somebody who keeps "going on" about objective thinking, emotive language, you're very quick to start making veiled accusations of fanboyism when conversations are not favourable to Intel. I've certainly not seen you counter any emotive language Dave2150 has used, for example, in prematurely and erroneously singing Rocket Lake's praises, because that puppy is as far from objective as you can possibly get. But I shan't go as far as accusing you of actually being a fanboy yourself, because I'm not that much of a child.

Assuming though it's actually possible for you to dismount your high horse, how about that Alder Lake, eh? You got anything to contribute? Or just going to do a Dg and FoxEye in show up, cry about AMD fanboys, offer nothing of substance and then **** off for a few days?

Your arrogance is pretty astounding. I'm sorry you don't feel that I'm contributing to the discussion, maybe I don't have a high enough post count? And I'm the one on the high horse?
I've actually said a few things about Alder Lake on this forum. You can look up my thoughts if you wish? Unfortunately any conversation about Intel gets derailed for some reason.

The fact remains, that this whole thread is supposed to be about Alder Lake, so why don't you just start another discussion? You can post all the accusations you want in that one, then we can keep this one on topic. Seriously, I don't want any posts to be deleted so start another topic please.
It's a bit wierd that you even seem to hold my posting pattern against me too. I assume you know it's possible to have a life outside of this forum?

*edit* Oh, also thanks, it was very gracious of you not to be childish and call me a fanboy for challenging your point of view.

 

[LePhuronn]

But the discussion is about Alder Lake, that's the point. Or should discussion be confined purely to a little tidbit of information and then halted completely until something else comes up? There is nothing to discuss beyond speculation and rumour until a real product lands on our doorstep. Such speculation is, of course, performance figures and how it will stack up to the competition. Ppart of that involves Intel's marketing numbers, which automatically fall under scrutiny because A: don't trust marketing, B: especially don't trust Intel's marketing, C: Intel's proven track history with delivering on those numbers, or not as the case often is.

It's just unfortunate that such discussion will inevitably be negative because Intel have not delivered anything close to their marketing numbers for quite some time. That's just the way it is. So I'm sorry if you think we're going on bashing Intel, but that's just the way it is right now. Intel haven't delivered anything like they've claimed for ages and a lot of their marketing has been heavily skewed, biased and outright paid shill nonsense (especially true since Ryan Shrout got hired).

This is not emotive or bias or fanboyism, this is cold, hard, fact. This is also a valid part of the discussion.

 

[Destination]

Your arrogance is pretty astounding. I'm sorry you don't feel that I'm contributing to the discussion, maybe I don't have a high enough post count? And I'm the one on the high horse?
I've actually said a few things about Alder Lake on this forum. You can look up my thoughts if you wish? Unfortunately any conversation about Intel gets derailed for some reason.

The fact remains, that this whole thread is supposed to be about Alder Lake, so why don't you just start another discussion? You can post all the accusations you want in that one, then we can keep this one on topic. Seriously, I don't want any posts to be deleted so start another topic please.
It's a bit wierd that you even seem to hold my posting pattern against me too. I assume you know it's possible to have a life outside of this forum?

*edit* Oh, also thanks, it was very gracious of you not to be childish and call me a fanboy for challenging your point of view.

Out of interest, what are you challenging?
The potential that Intel might be faster in the future?
Or that they have something now which is competitive at anything other than 6 core price? (and is still beaten by their own previous gen on price)