Alex Jones..

My point being their publicly stated items are not in line with their actions. So Google isn't a private company as people have been saying. Now this has been shown, they now deflect the thrust of their argument.

But it's not a government-owned entity, which is what most people assume when you say something is a public company (i.e. in the public sector). Just because the shares are publicly traded doesn't make a company a public sector one. To claim otherwise isn't just disingenuous, it's outright wrong.

As far as "their platform is not for everyone like they say it is" to shorten part of your argument some, their platform is open for everyone but has rules regarding the use of it. Same as the comments section on a news site, same as virtually any forum that you care to name. Jones couldn't/wouldn't abide by the rules on various platforms, and thus was removed from them. This is not a free speech issue, or an issue that runs counter to the First Amendment of the US Constitution, and it certainly isn't rocket science. So I can only believe that the people not getting this don't want to get it.
 
you really are embarrassing yourself. a 'public' company is not owned by 'the public' it is owned by shareholders.

you absolutely have the right to your opinion that they shouldn't ban alex jones, regardless of your view of him, although frankly if you think he has any value, then lol. but others absolutely have the right to think they should.

in terms of law and free speech, there is no issue. this is about...wait for it...freedom of association. the companies are exercising their right not to be associated with a vile, lying hatemonger. this isn't about left or right - galloway might be a good example on the left, if they wanted to ban him from their platforms (assuming they haven't already) for his disgusting behaviour and views that'd be fine too. actually it'd be fine for them to ban whoever they like, it just wouldn't be good business.
 
oh actually there might a limitation under anti-discrimination laws - banning for being {insert protected minority here} would probably be a no-no, like with baking the cakes for gay weddings thing. I'm not sure I actually agree with that sort of legal protection in terms of freedom (again, freedom of association) but on balance I do think it is probably for the best.
 
Well, yeah. That would be my point. Which is why I was asking Screeeech :)

See my previous replies, I repeat;

I don’t think it’s wise to de-platform people who have crazy or toxic views, so long as what they’re saying doesn’t break the law, it really is that simple, I’ve said it enough times now, it’s a clear line.

Saying something like “their platform their rules” is fine when you apply it to somewhere like OCUK, because the impact is very limited, especially when the only real rules that are enforced are for things such as bad language, threats or personal insults - it’s hardly the same, as de-platforming someone because of their crazy political views or conspiracy theories.

I think what you’ve failed to grasp, is that platforms like Facebook,YouTube etc - provide communication and a platform to roughly 1/3rd of the planet’s population, they’re operating at a scale few people could even imagine 15 years ago.

When they decide to step in and start restricting speech based on their own Ts and Cs, I think that could be troublesome further down the line.
 
yeah but these clowns only disagree with censorship (by a business/company) if is a form of censorship they disagree with - they bleat on about slippery slopes and freedom of speech when it suits them

You're doing what you are saying others are doing.

If I am the head of BT or Virgin Media and decide I don't like your posts on social media, I say we should withdraw service to your house - you would agree that as a company I could do that?
 
You're doing what you are saying others are doing.

If I am the head of BT or Virgin Media and decide I don't like your posts on social media, I say we should withdraw service to your house - you would agree that as a company I could do that?
That's considerably different, because your ISP is not purely enabling you to post on social media sites.

That would be similar to your electric company deciding to cut off your electricity if they don't like your social media posts.
 
Screeeech - I haven't 'failed to grasp' that at all. I just think that it's not an issue, as far as his freedom of speech goes. Alex Jones has a website - he doesn't *need* YouTube to get in touch with his audience. He might *want* it as it's a large userbase to spaff his ****-posting and advertising at, but he certainly doesn't need it.

BowdonUK - in your hypothetical scenario do BT/Virgin Media have terms of use that prohibit the hypothetical content of the posting on social media that DreadNiK is hypothetically doing, or is it just that someone at the company doesn't like it? Because that would make quite a difference.
 
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I was meaning the actual phone company not the ISP's, so it would be mainly Openreach. But I was being a bit naughty as they are classed as having carrier status and can't be held responsible for everything that gets sent down the phone line.

I was seeing what the answer would be to the people who are saying all private companies have a right to withdraw service. I wondered how far that view would go.

My actual position on this is if someone breaks the T&C of a site then the person should be given a copy of the offending post and told this breaks the rules. Then it would be up to the site how they deal with it.

The part I have a problem with is the vague nature of saying you committed hate speech yet so far I've not seen YT or the other company produce the actual post that triggered him being kicked off. If they had then I wouldnt have a problem with it.

It's very difficult to get to the facts of the case as most of the web based media are nearly 100% opinion pieces that seem to be more happy its Alex Jones getting booted off than the actual facts of the case. I don't give a monkeys who it is. I'm just questioning the procedure.
 
Jordan Peterson’s reaction to the whole thing is pretty interesting, I think I agree with a lot of what he says on the matter,


He made very good points in that video. Very smart man. He's honestly spot on

Unfortunately, the host is an idiot, his comments are typical of comments that people already made here.

6:40, he brings up the same point I made many pages ago, should a phone service or an ISP or any service for that matter, start refusing people because they don't like that person or what they are saying over the phone?

It's a black hole they opened and they going to sink in that hole.
 
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He made very good points in that video. Very smart man. He's honestly spot on

Unfortunately, the host is an idiot, his comments are typical of comments that people already made here.

6:40, he brings up the same point I made many pages ago, should a phone service or an ISP or any service for that matter, start refusing people because they don't like that person or what they are saying over the phone?

It's a black hole they opened and they going to sink in that hole.

"Jordan Peterson joins Steven Crowder (playing devil's advocate)"
hehe "gotya"
 
Any comparison between an ISP/Telecoms company and Twitter/Facebook/YouTube is fatally flawed on several levels.
Off the top of my head, and baring in mind it's nearly 4am.

One is the legal frameworks in which the operate.
With an ISP/Telecoms provider they have pretty much a blanket "common carrier" exemption and what you do with their service is basically private (they are not meant to monitor it in detail except where the law requires, usually with a warrant), they can't tell what you're doing with it, and in many instances there is also a universal obligation to provide it to whoever will pay for it as long as they don't break the law.
Youtube etc are mainly "public" , what you do on them is open to anyone to see, which gives the service provider greater responsibilities in regards to how it's used, although they do have a defence of "we were unaware of it before X". Youtube etc also have no responsibility or obligation to provide services to anyone, as long as they don't discriminate based on one of the legally protected groups (and being a CT selling tat isn't one of them).

So you've got one where what you say is done with the pretty much complete expectation of privacy from the provider, and one where you're basically putting what you're saying in public for the world to see, in the former the ISP/phone company won't have a clue what you're talking about even if it's a plan to murder someone, in the latter you might as well be shouting it in their front office.

Then there is the basic business model.
ISPs/Telecoms companies have you as their customer and the access as their product, you are paying for your use of the services thus it's not in the interest of the company to throw you off unless they have to (you start making harassing calls for example and they'll soon kick you off once the verified complaints start coming in), likewise if you are using the service in a manner that is detrimental to other customers, or if you start to cost them too much because you're breaking the terms of service (running a busy webserver on your home connection, or sending out spam email).

Twitter/Facebook/Youtube etc all have you as the Product, it's great for them if you get loads of subscribers/viewers as long as advertisers (who are their customers) can put ads in front of you.
However when you start to behave in a manner that annoys the advertisers and thus putting them off buying adverts on the service, the company has to do something (this is where a lot of the "unacceptable" content sections of their T&C comes from*, stuff that may be legal but drives their customers away), as they have a legal responsibility to try and do what is best for their shareholders.
Now if you're using their service to spew nonsense that is actively aimed at causing offence that's going to put off advertisers, when you are doing that and aiming it at victims of terrorist attacks and mass murders, that becomes a PR nightmare for the advertisers whose ads may be playing between parts of the videoclip or alongside the written content.
At this point any sensible company that is aware of it's obligations (forget even basic human decency) will start thinking about how such a user is putting their financial situation at risk, and if enough advertising is affected they have a choice of "allowing free speech" and breaching the duty they have to their investors and shareholders, or getting rid of the account and keeping the money flowing.
Given the size of some of the advertisers it might only take one or two major brands (Proctor and Gamble for example**) to get cold feet about their products being promoted alongside someone who is calling the grieving parents of murdered primary school children liars and encouraging his braindead followers to harass them, and you've got a situation where the company is likely to take action - lose one user that is on the edge of the T&C and has gone over it at least once, or lose an advertising account worth millions.


In short.

ISPs etc you are the customer and what you are doing is private and no one elses business as you're paying for the use of it, Youtube etc is public and you are being allowed to use whilst someone else is paying for it.



*And why youtube demonetised a bunch of categories of videos, and why for example we don't allow a lot of stuff on these boards (as the boards reflect on the shop, so some stuff is straight out).

**Given much of their products are aimed at families, it probably doesn't sit well with their brand to have advertising playing alongside someone who is spewing vitriol at grieving families.
 
Any comparison between an ISP/Telecoms company and Twitter/Facebook/YouTube is fatally flawed on several levels.
Off the top of my head, and baring in mind it's nearly 4am.

One is the legal frameworks in which the operate.
With an ISP/Telecoms provider they have pretty much a blanket "common carrier" exemption and what you do with their service is basically private (they are not meant to monitor it in detail except where the law requires, usually with a warrant), they can't tell what you're doing with it, and in many instances there is also a universal obligation to provide it to whoever will pay for it as long as they don't break the law.
Youtube etc are mainly "public" , what you do on them is open to anyone to see, which gives the service provider greater responsibilities in regards to how it's used, although they do have a defence of "we were unaware of it before X". Youtube etc also have no responsibility or obligation to provide services to anyone, as long as they don't discriminate based on one of the legally protected groups (and being a CT selling tat isn't one of them).

So you've got one where what you say is done with the pretty much complete expectation of privacy from the provider, and one where you're basically putting what you're saying in public for the world to see, in the former the ISP/phone company won't have a clue what you're talking about even if it's a plan to murder someone, in the latter you might as well be shouting it in their front office.

Then there is the basic business model.
ISPs/Telecoms companies have you as their customer and the access as their product, you are paying for your use of the services thus it's not in the interest of the company to throw you off unless they have to (you start making harassing calls for example and they'll soon kick you off once the verified complaints start coming in), likewise if you are using the service in a manner that is detrimental to other customers, or if you start to cost them too much because you're breaking the terms of service (running a busy webserver on your home connection, or sending out spam email).

Twitter/Facebook/Youtube etc all have you as the Product, it's great for them if you get loads of subscribers/viewers as long as advertisers (who are their customers) can put ads in front of you.
However when you start to behave in a manner that annoys the advertisers and thus putting them off buying adverts on the service, the company has to do something (this is where a lot of the "unacceptable" content sections of their T&C comes from*, stuff that may be legal but drives their customers away), as they have a legal responsibility to try and do what is best for their shareholders.
Now if you're using their service to spew nonsense that is actively aimed at causing offence that's going to put off advertisers, when you are doing that and aiming it at victims of terrorist attacks and mass murders, that becomes a PR nightmare for the advertisers whose ads may be playing between parts of the videoclip or alongside the written content.
At this point any sensible company that is aware of it's obligations (forget even basic human decency) will start thinking about how such a user is putting their financial situation at risk, and if enough advertising is affected they have a choice of "allowing free speech" and breaching the duty they have to their investors and shareholders, or getting rid of the account and keeping the money flowing.
Given the size of some of the advertisers it might only take one or two major brands (Proctor and Gamble for example**) to get cold feet about their products being promoted alongside someone who is calling the grieving parents of murdered primary school children liars and encouraging his braindead followers to harass them, and you've got a situation where the company is likely to take action - lose one user that is on the edge of the T&C and has gone over it at least once, or lose an advertising account worth millions.


In short.

ISPs etc you are the customer and what you are doing is private and no one elses business as you're paying for the use of it, Youtube etc is public and you are being allowed to use whilst someone else is paying for it.



*And why youtube demonetised a bunch of categories of videos, and why for example we don't allow a lot of stuff on these boards (as the boards reflect on the shop, so some stuff is straight out).

**Given much of their products are aimed at families, it probably doesn't sit well with their brand to have advertising playing alongside someone who is spewing vitriol at grieving families.

I wouldn't bother. When they start drawing ridiculous false equivalences like that (ie that an ISP blocking you is the same as Youtube blocking you), you know that they don't have a proper argument.
 
If you have noticed he sells products and constantly advertises them in his broadcasts. Nothing at all to do with the information he is spewing out.
No diferrent to sky / cnn /lbc etc having commercial breaks....the products they advertise have nothing to do with the shows content.
Youtube firstly de-monitized infowars from earning from videos (equating to $100000's in lost revenue) before de-platforming hence why they have had to ramp up these adverts to get income for the channel...... though you can always donate:p

Can't watch this guy or his fellow broadcasters.
No ones asking you too however the people who do enjoy AJ and/or the shows various contributors and guests are being actively denied. Just think how you would feel if the Young Turks got de-platformed.
 
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