AMD says PhysX will die

[drunkenmaster]

drunkenmaster said "Woo theres bits of paper on this windy rooftop, wonder who keeps throwing away paper on the rooftop, and how it stays up there until I run over it.........."
Most normal large city's have rubbish on the rooftops and the rubbish blows from rooftop to rooftop. Your complaining because they made the rooftop more like real life?

I'm pretty sure though not certain that again I said you'd turn up spouting crap soon so I wouldn't bother coming back. Again you've never once proven me wrong in any thread, you simply spount inane nonsense saying but this is real that is real, the material ripping perfectly makes for better gameplay , blah blah blah.

As with every single last one of your posts you misquote me on purpose, did I say pixel perfect platforming was necessary, no, but its ridiculously bad. If you'd played it you'd know , infact read the Zero PUnctuation review on it, its 100% accurate. Its a ridiculously short game, with zero gameplay, zero story and the collision engine is so freaking bad its a joke. THe problem here, for the, every single PPU game is they spend all the time on PPU features, and forget that the gameplay physics are a billion times more important but are ignored. Yet again I'll say it takes far to much time to program useless bits of litter that they have no time to make a real full length game with any playability. You'll say again, but its new, people aren't used to it yet, it takes time to perfect.

The simple fact is the physics in the game are woeful, the physics of a couple of particles you'll barely notice aren't bad, well sure, that makes for better immersion. INfact the demo is all you need, the last leap onto the chopper, you're literally a country mile from making the jump and yet you make it magically, half the jumps are like that. Half the time you can't jump over a little pipe or box because the game is so badly done, but you can be sure that while you're trying to get over a tiny box that your character can't make it over, those 3 bits of paper in the wind look ok, and the banner flaps around semi realistically but you'll be wondering what the banner is doing in another maintainance type corridoor.



You never prove me wrong and before very release you go on about how good it will be and how great material effects are, how the physx will improve gameplay and how litter blowing in the wind immerses you in the game more.


Please for the love of god, go to any skyscraper, check the roof and take a picture of all this litter. I'll ask you to use a modicum of common sense here. Its an open roof high up where wind is far stronger. THe wind is strong enough that when you're near it you can see the litter blow. Is it realistic that this litter would go up in the air, circle around and land back where it was, or would it blow up and off the roof and eventually hit the pavement. Where exactly would all the litter come from on the highest roof, or any other roof for example.

The game is another tech demo, it really doesn't have any story, and reason or rhyme, aswell as the fact it plays like crap.

 

[Rroff]

The jumps being off is nothing to do with physics and everything to do with animation issues - in most current game development animations are quite limited and have to be lined up at development time - so if your within a reasonable distance of where the animation is going to be played its counted as a hit and your snapped to where it all lines up - this is an issue with a lot of other games too tho mirrors edge its probably more noticeable.

As to there being debris on the top of a sky scraper or not is a whole non-issue - its called poetic license and happens in many creative mediums.

 

[Lightnix]

Meh, Havok's better because good games use it.

And I played the demo of Mirror's Edge, it is very 'meh.'

And despite it 'not being a pixel-perfect platformer,' it's still very frustrating when you're jumping at the red pipe/ledge/whatever the hell it is, which you're standing right beneath and your stupid character refuses to grab the **** onto it.

 

[drunkenmaster]

The jumps being off is nothing to do with physics and everything to do with animation issues - in most current game development animations are quite limited and have to be lined up at development time - so if your within a reasonable distance of where the animation is going to be played its counted as a hit and your snapped to where it all lines up - this is an issue with a lot of other games too tho mirrors edge its probably more noticeable.

As to there being debris on the top of a sky scraper or not is a whole non-issue - its called poetic license and happens in many creative mediums.

Yes but the problem is, the jumping isn't a big deal in normal games, this game IS JUST JUMPING. There is no story, they don't tell you why you're delivering anything, who too, why the government people chasing you are bad, the only thing in the game is jumping around , thats it, if you can't get the jumping right in a game focused on it, you screwed up. If Half Life 2 seems a bit dodgey, you jump to early appear to not make it but still do, its not game breaking, in a game solely about jumping its attrocious. The problem is, its just another PPU game where no time was spent on anything except the PPU effects. Sorry but I can't get more immersed in a game because it has debrie, if it has no story, reason or even remotely fun gameplay. But this isn't the first PPU title to have the issue, neither is it the first PPU title to be incredibly, incredibly short.

Also the collision engine is part of the physics, and its completely crap in the game.

I don't care about poetic licence, I don't care theres debrie on a rooftop when there shouldn't be, I do care when thats basically the entire point of the game though. Especially a game built for a PPU platform whose never ending PR department go on and on about realism and immersion, yet offer neither.

IF, and its a big IF, the gameplay was there, it had a beautiful story that sucked you in AND it wasn't ridiculously short then I wouldn't complain about the PPU stuff at all in any way. But its another game where PPU is the only focus and nothing else manages to fit in along side it. UT3 has a PPU level, 1 of them(maybe more by now, I haven't paid attention to it since release as its crap), why did it have one level, and why do umpteen games that support the PPU hardware have one real level(maybe 2 if they are lucky). because its taking entire teams dedicated to making those levels in the time it takes the rest of the team to make an entire game. SOmethings just wrong with the platform if you can build an entire fun game with a great story, and simply not have time to make a long good game if you use PPU properly.


Again, I won't mind the effects, if they ever make it into a game where every level uses the PPU and looks and feels better because of it, there isn't one out though, and they've had multiple years now. Every game they promote as being a huge PPU title is an utter flop, MIrror's Edge is original, but unfortunately utter crap. Now it might not be down to the PPU at all, might of been simply a bunch of talentless hacks who made a crap game and bought PPU support because they didn't have the people to make good gameplay or put in a decent story. Thats not Physx's fault, but this game, is dire. I've yet to see a game where I've thought this would be so much better if it had a PPU, thats a big problem. COD4, would I have cared if debrie, that I won't go back and see, stays there, no. Its a great game because its fun and has a great story. IF PPU can add useful effects that help the game I'm happy to see them, the issue is I've yet to see a single gameplay improving PPU effect IN a game, everything I've seen to date suggests its simply not possible.

Also 2kgames, and EA are one thing to sign up, but they make their own games, and publish games, all them signing up means their own games CAN(not will but CAN) use the Physx engine. Rockstar made GTA, not 2k games, not sure why the press release says otherwise Take two distributed it who are owned by 2kgames. That means nothing, it basically means EA's and 2kgames own games, which aren't really very many between them or very good, can use it the games that are distrubuted by them will have no reason to use it. Bioshock wasn't made by 2kgames either, but a company that was bought by 2kgames well after production started and its unlikely the 2nd game, well into production would be effected by this.

2kgames own games are mostly drivel film tie in games, fantastic four, Ghost Rider, thank god the next terrible film tie in will have physx in. Except even they won't. Consoles are around, they are at the moment very important in the design process, neither console supports PPU hardware, so really will any games that support the consoles be released with physx hardware support....... the answer, no.

So while the consoles are about which don't support it, it won't gain any speed. Its done nothing to date except be used in crap games and the next consoles will almost certainly be DX11 with open support for other engines that don't limit themselves.


But if you want EA games 2012 basketball/baseball/nfl then keep your physx cards around.

 

[Rroff]

mirrors edge isn't a great game and I don't think anyones said different... but don't base all your criticism about hardware physics soley on the implementation in a couple of games.

 

[Rroff]

As for mirrors edge - they really screwed up there imo - they had a great ambiance and a tight visual theme and could easily have made an engrossing game something like deus ex, etc.

 

[drunkenmaster]

As for mirrors edge - they really screwed up there imo - they had a great ambiance and a tight visual theme and could easily have made an engrossing game something like deus ex, etc.

AS I said I'm not blaming it solely on PPU, a lack of story, length and gameplay is down to the people who made the game.

HOwever every game that uses PPU in this way has had the same issue, its only being used in these games that end up short, and crap.

Assasins creed frankly has a far far better collision detection and the jumping/grabbing on works flawlessly and very very very smoothly with as far as I can remember not a single problem.

I put the game down mostly to hapless and crap management/coding/developement and just everyone involved being useless tbh. THe problem is Physx/Nvidia were the ones putting previews of the physx in it and bigging it up as the latest greatest PPU title. If they themselves think this is a wonderful implementation of Physx, we're in trouble.

Lets say PPU's are capable of making the best game ever, they won't make it if they think Mirror's Edge is fantastic, they'll make more Mirror's Edge type games. If someone at PPU came out and said its a shame we sold the licence to these fools who completley missused it and made a damn awful game, frankly I'd respect them and have more hope for it. But when they act all excited about this.... well to me its a very bad sign for what they hope to achieve as they are acting like they've achieved it with this game.

 

[londonbairn]

Is any of the PhysX applied currently actually useful, (i.e. improves game experience?)

 

[Rroff]

Thats somewhat debatable - for the most part its incidental effects. I do think personally the cloth effects add something to the game - it does look nice to see the plastics tear and deform when "wind" or another body interacts with it.

 

[Pottsey]

It's really funny drunkenmaster that you accuse me of spouting inane nonsense when that's mostly all you have been doing recently. See http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/sh...highlight=physx+username_drunkenmaster&page=3
I didn't miss quote you their, I asked you to show evidence and back up your total lies and nonsense with facts. Everyone with reading skills can see it was you not me who is spouting inane nonsense.



drunkenmaster said " before very release you go on about how good it will be and how great material effects are, how the physx will improve gameplay and how litter blowing in the wind immerses you in the game more."
Your imagining things, show me posts where I do that before every release. The only comments I recall along those line are that if everyone had hardware physics, (doesn't have to be PhysX) then physics in games could move on.




drunkenmaster said " You never prove me wrong"
Now you're having a laugh. Talk about delusional
What about the time you said PhysX cannot do game play physics, what about your rubbish on 2nd and 3rd level physics. What about when you said “Yet again i'll point out that, everything you can see in an OTT PPU demo CAN be done more efficiently by using estimated answers in software.”
Again you where proved wrong and failed to show any evidence of what was asked of you.

“Every wall that can be destroyed must be designed to do so, a wall that explodes in 5 pieces takes 50 times as long to design as a wall that doesn't destruct,W”
Again proved wrong.



drunkenmaster said" As with every single last one of your posts you misquote me on purpose,"
Talk about delusional. When someone proves you wrong on physics its, "you miss quoted me" or you ignore them or you just say they are speaking nonsense when it's clear to everyone they are not. Can you give any examples of where I have misquoted you? Or are you just going to conveniently ignore posting evidence like you always do.





drunkenmaster said "Yet again I'll say it takes far to much time to program useless bits of litter that they have no time to make a real full length game with any playability."
If the game had little game play it's got nothing to do with PhysX. PhysX wasn't added to the game till after it was pretty much done. They only spent a few months on PhysX. There was that big annoucment that the date was put back a few months as they wanted to implant PhysX. So your your wrong when you said PhysX takes up to much time, so there is no time left for gameplay. Have you any evidence that PhysX slows down game development? Or is that something else your just makeing up?




drunkenmaster said "UT3 has a PPU level, 1 of them(maybe more by now, I haven't paid attention to it since release as its crap), why did it have one level, and why do umpteen games that support the PPU hardware have one real level(maybe 2 if they are lucky)."
Every single level used the PPU. There wasn't just one PPU/GPU level. UT3 is a good case of how GPU physics are worth it. The speed increase alone is worth it. Unless your thinking of the bonus map pack? But that wasnt one level.



drunkenmaster said "IF PPU can add useful effects that help the game I'm happy to see them, the issue is I've yet to see a single gameplay improving PPU effect IN a game, everything I've seen to date suggests its simply not possible."
What about the liquid chemical grenades in BOS? Even if you didn't like the game, it was a large improving PPU only game play effect.

 

[helmutcheese]

LOL (thinks back to at least 2 threads, 1 on cooling other on ahh I forget).

 

[Rroff]

heh

the level of detail of physics and the impact it has is also subject to the person - some people are more demanding than others.

Personally having worked in game development and played with physics a bit I notice the difference from having something like physx, havok, etc. and less complex physics "simulations" and they make a huge difference to the immersion for me personally.

 

[Pottsey]

drunkenmaster said "Especially a game built for a PPU platform whose never ending PR department go on and on about realism and immersion, yet offer neither."
What game are you on about, I hope you don't mean Mirror's Edge. That game wasn't built for the PPU/GPU platform. It was tagged on right at the very end.
As for the no litter on city rooftops

https://flic.kr/p/413Qd

https://flic.kr/p/4qAsZr

 

[willy]

Lol, i think this thread going to turn into ATI VS Nvidia war

 

[Tombo]

lol at having a go at Mirrors edge for being PhysX trash, it's out on consoles already if you haven't noticed and by all account is an excellent game, I don't see how adding a bit more polish for the PC version makes it open to uninformed bs opinion.

 

[Gerard]

Lol, i think this thread going to turn into ATI VS Nvidia war

Nope, it will (as usual) turn into the 1 physx fan (pottsey) vs the rest of the forum, part 92.

 

[helmutcheese]

Hmm, I'm all for FREE Phyx on my already bought for another reason hardware (GPU).

I would take what AMD(ATI) say with a pinch of salt, again they prob cannot get it to run well on current GPU's for whatever reason as it was offered FREELY.

As I said above, 2 game vendors now are onboard, who knows how many will follow then it may actually get done right and not stuck onto a game at end of its making.

 

[mdjmcnally]

Agree, why would developers use physX instead of OpenCL, which works on any card. Unless nvidia like bribing developers lol.

Console games already use Havok and Physx. A lot of games on the PC are either ported to or from the consoles. Are they really going to code for OpenCL on Windows and then port across to Consoles in Physx or Havok.

I don't see DirectX making it to a PS3 somehow. Also will OpenCL hit the xBox and PS3 arena.

 

[drunkenmaster]

drunkenmaster said "Especially a game built for a PPU platform whose never ending PR department go on and on about realism and immersion, yet offer neither."
What game are you on about, I hope you don't mean Mirror's Edge. That game wasn't built for the PPU/GPU platform. It was tagged on right at the very end.
As for the no litter on city rooftops

https://flic.kr/p/413Qd

https://flic.kr/p/4qAsZr

You notice two things here, firstly the are buildings with a higher edge which can trap litter and protect from the wind, which would also "mostly" protect it from blowing away but would also stop it randomly blowing in your face as wind can't get to it. The Mirror's edge rooftops are mostly open edge, and heavily security protected where no one would be. THe pictures you showed have chairs, graffiti, people obviously hang out there. WHere people are, there is rubbish and litter, even then on a roof it has to be protected from the wind and is, shockingly blown to the very edge where it stays. The roofs in the game are heavily defended by people with guns, military/government buildings, they don't have chairs, they don't have people hanging out and throwing their rubbish. So in other words, you fail, again.

When will this get boring, PPU promote a game as having PPU features, they are tacked onto a crap game, your excuse, oh it wasn't designed from the ground up. It doesn't change the fact that, almost every succesful well recieved game hasn't required Physx, and wouldn't be better with physx, the companies that are buying into it are making crap games. IF ID, Valve, etc, a single decent game maker add it into a game and it makes a difference, I'll maybe say its got its first game where it might be ok, its yet to have that. I'm actually trying to find a date when the PPU was released, or even when Ageia started but their site seems to be completely gone now. Lets just say, its been a long time and yet no game seems to use it to its entirety and its shown us nothing yet except it can do pretty materials if thats the only thing on screen. The material demo from its site looked good, the material effects in Mirror's edge, and was it Warmonger, were no where near as good. Anything can look good when all the power is directed at one single thing, in game, with more to do you can't get the same quality with so much more going on.

lol at having a go at Mirrors edge for being PhysX trash, it's out on consoles already if you haven't noticed and by all account is an excellent game, I don't see how adding a bit more polish for the PC version makes it open to uninformed bs opinion.

ITs widely reviewed as a trash game with nothing remotely good about it, original but failed.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Console games already use Havok and Physx. A lot of games on the PC are either ported to or from the consoles. Are they really going to code for OpenCL on Windows and then port across to Consoles in Physx or Havok.

I don't see DirectX making it to a PS3 somehow. Also will OpenCL hit the xBox and PS3 arena.

Consoles use the physx software, which is a far cry from supporting the hardware, opencl is going to be a far wider intergrated standard from what I've heard, which none of the mentioned things is, its not a physics engine, just a way to implement one. The physx hardware adding things in games that can't be there without means consoles can't have those features enabled, for a market thats heavily biased to making games for consoles, who in there right mind will make anything that supports the hardware properly?

They are talking about essentially the next gen consoles being DX11 and having a open standard, physx hardware is unlikely to make a dent.

Lets be honest 2kgames and EA games are about the biggest sellouts in the industry, look at the titles made only by them, rather than distributed or bought out recently and you have a very limited range of mostly rather terrible games. Bioshock is about 2kgames biggest, which was bought and wasn't originally them and it uses the Havok engine, its fairly unlikely to use Physx at all, considering its been in the making for what, a year already and probably being built upon/over the top of the last engine aswell.