AMD Zen 3 (5000 Series), rumored 17% IPC gain.

[Augustus]

Yeah but their aim is the get the most sales as possible. If manufacturer A sells a motherboard with a 32Mb BIOS and manufacturer B sells a competing motherboard with a 16Mb BIOS, the later will get more sales because they undercut.

That's why some Windows 10 laptops were sold with a 32Gb SSD. They undercut competing products with a bigger SSD. Tech savvy people know better but most people aren't tech savvy.

Although surely most motherboard sales are by tech savvy people anyway. So I dont know.

I understand your point and i've seen plenty of examples of it happening.

The subject of making money through innovation (which i support) versus 'making money' though cutting costs is an interesting subject. Happy to engage on it if you want to start a separate thread.

 

[ubersonic]

And before that AMD were behind on IPC

Not always, hell the reason the Athlon XP 2200 was called the Athlon XP 2200 and not the 1.8GHz Athlon XP was because it had the performance of a 2200MHz Pentium 4 and they wanted to shout about it.

 

[Augustus]

This. That would be such an awesome feature. Surely it cant be too difficult.

....furiously scrambling to patent it.....

 

[Martini1991]

Not always, hell the reason the Athlon XP 2200 was called the Athlon XP 2200 and not the 1.8GHz Athlon XP was because it had the performance of a 2200MHz Pentium 4 and they wanted to shout about it.

Oh, I know there was a point AMD were ahead.
But it was a long long time ago.

 

[ubersonic]

You know guys all the talk of old hardware has reminded me, remember when bios chips just pressed into the board and if you had a problem with them you could just request a replacement from the board vendor and swap them out? Wouldn't it be useful to still have that feature right now haha.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

You know guys all the talk of old hardware has reminded me, remember when bios chips just pressed into the board and if you had a problem with them you could just request a replacement from the board vendor and swap them out? Wouldn't it be useful to still have that feature right now haha.

I used to remember dual BIOSes also.

 

[Augustus]

I used to remember dual BIOSes also.

I recently recovered a corrupted bios using the included SPI pins on a DFI motherboard.

 

[CuriousTomCat]

I used to remember dual BIOSes also.

Yes I remember the classic X570 Aorus with it's dual BIOSes back in the day.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I recently recovered a corrupted bios using the included SPI pins on a DFI motherboard.

I might have a DFI motherboard lying about somewhere. A shame as they made great motherboards. They still exist but make only industrial motherboards.

Yes I remember the classic X570 Aorus with it's dual BIOSes back in the day.

They used to be on cheaper motherboards too. Even 32MB BIOS chips on £80 to £90 AM3+ motherboards and socketed BIOSes. These chips are....cheap as chips. The RGB LEDs probably cost more money!

These companies are making features sound like they are expensive! To put it in context,the 970 AM3+ motherboards I remembered using for mates builds,7 to 10 years ago,would be the equivalent of £120 adjusted for exchange rates and inflation.VRMs capable of over 200W,massive VRM and chipset heatsinks,dual card support,32MB BIOSes,8 SATA ports,etc. These motherboards are still working in frequently used PCs even today, with overclocked CPUs.

It's why AMD setting the bar so low for it's reference B450 and X470 motherboads is perplexing!

Edit!!

The same with Intel TBF,and the market for gaming PCs,etc is probably more nowadays.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Someone on Reddit looked at 2020 BIOS chip pricing:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/gi9w7q/for_the_unaware_16mb_bios_flash_chip_price_is/

For the unaware 16MB "bios" flash chip price is under 1.5usd and for 32MB not even 1usd more, IN SINGLE QUANTITIES

Spoiler

 

[CuriousTomCat]

These companies are making features sound like they are expensive!

Yeah I agree. I remember when UEFI was supposed to be this revolutionary new design which replaced the clunky keyboard operated BIOS.

I remember thinking hang on a minute, we had that in the early 90s on old 486 motherboards. The BIOS was literally a mouse operated GUI.

Then 20 years later it was sold to us as a new feature.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Yeah I agree. I remember when UEFI was supposed to be this revolutionary new design which replaced the clunky keyboard operated BIOS.

I remember thinking hang on a minute, we had that in the early 90s on old 486 motherboards. The BIOS was literally a mouse operated GUI.

Then 20 years later it was sold to us as a new feature.

Well its why I don't understand why it's such a big problem to make a proper VRM or chipset heatsink. Modern VRMs are far more efficient than many of the older ones,and a piece of machined aluminium isn't that expensive!

It probably costs more money to design and integrate the additional traces into the motherboard to power the RGB LEDS everywhere.

 

[Grim5]

Someone on Reddit looked at 2020 BIOS chip pricing:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/gi9w7q/for_the_unaware_16mb_bios_flash_chip_price_is/

Did you watch GN video on the topic?

Basically

* AMD asked mobo vendors for 32MB boards since Zen 1, they were told to go jump up a tree.
* Yes the extra price for unit is $1, but there is cost to add that part in - that is added to the cost of the board. Basically the whole factory line was configured to build using 16MB ROMs because thats what worked for Intel and the Vendors didnt want to create a new line just for Zen
* Vendors dont feel like they would be able to increase the price if they start adding in several one off requests. So doing that would come out of their margin.
* AMD has never forced vendors to use 32MB ROMs.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Did you watch GN video on the topic?

Basically

* AMD asked mobo vendors for 32MB boards since Zen 1, they were told to go jump up a tree.
* Yes the extra price for unit is $1, but there is cost to add that part in - that is added to the cost of the board. Basically the whole factory line was configured to build using 16MB ROMs because thats what worked for Intel and the Vendors didnt want to create a new line just for Zen
* Vendors dont feel like they would be able to increase the price if they start adding in several one off requests. So doing that would come out of their margin.
* AMD has never forced vendors to use 32MB ROMs.

That's funny my 2018 B450 motherboard has a 32MB BIOS.

 

[Grim5]

That's funny my 2018 B450 motherboard has a 32MB BIOS.

Yes, I too, have a 32MB BIOS. Not everyone does if the manufacturer has tried to cut corners on pre 500 series boards

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Yes, I too, have a 32MB BIOS. Not everyone does if the manufacturer has tried to cut corners on pre 500 series boards

The problem is a lot of X570 motherboards also use 16mb BIOS chips and you can implement dual 16MB BIOSes too,or even socketed BIOSes. None of this is new!

Which then goes back to the point if AMD knew this,why they kept everyone in the dark for a year. Schenker,a German system integrator were told by AMD their B450 systems would work and motherboard OEMs thought it would be fine until AMD made the announcement last week. The system integrator was perplexed and didn't even understand why AMD backtracked. That is very poor form for your own commercial customers!

This goes back to the criticisms of their vague marketing which is also affecting their own commercial customers apparently.

Heck,Gamersnexus indicated AMD knew they were actively screwing over people, and wanted to release the information before Zen3 so there would be less negative PR during the launch. It just comes across as them hoping nobody would notice - they even expected less of a backlash. As Gamersnexus showed AMD even made a whole post on their website criticising Intel for doing the same thing.

That is very cynical marketing there and pretty much what Intel does. They basically admitted their marketing can't be trusted and they don't care!

They were not clear and now it's come back to bite them in the backside. I think Gamersnexus repeatedly has pointed this out.

Were they so petrified that if they told people last year there would be less Zen2 sales? They probably would have had far more X570 sales. I really don't understand AMD logic at times.

Edit!!

Lest we forget the whole RX5600XT fiasco when AMD gave out reference specifications,which the AIB partners built models around. Then shortly before launch left a new BIOS on their laps which they couldn't test and guarantee on all the RX5600XT graphics cards, especially due to the memory overclock. So many had to go back and revalidate cards and some had to launch new revisions,devaluing the first revisions. Again not being clear about things.

 

[NinjaCool]

Here is a simple overview of the bios rom sizes of B350-X570 motherboards.

 

[Anchundan]

Here is a simple overview of the bios rom sizes of B350-X570 motherboards.

That's pretty interesting, seems to me to be showing the motherboard manufacturers who are still cutting corners to save costs, whereas ASRock, MSI and Asus were early adopters of 32MB ROM. Although I guess some early ASRocks were not even 16MB...

The ROM chip on my board is 8MB, the BIOS for Zen was 5MB, the BIOS for Zen 2 is 8MB and that's with Zen and Excavator support removed, with the Zen 2 BIOS that's in my board now it 'only' support's Zen 2.

This is why i believe them when they say its about the ROM size, i'm convinced the Zen 3 BIOS is larger than 8MB.

​

 

[TonTom]

Here is a simple overview of the bios rom sizes of B350-X570 motherboards.

Gigabyte are taking the proverbial with their X570 boards especially considering cost of the Master.

 

[Panos]

That's pretty interesting, seems to me to be showing the motherboard manufacturers who are still cutting corners to save costs, whereas ASRock, MSI and Asus were early adopters of 32MB ROM. Although I guess some early ASRocks were not even 16MB...

MSI produced the 32MB B450s last year and this year. Up to May last year they were non existent.