AMD Zen 3 (5000 Series), rumored 17% IPC gain.

[Doobedoo]

The problem is whether AMD will try and emulate what Intel is doing once they win,as Intel still makes tons of money doing this. ATM,things like the socket compatbility works in their favour against Intel,as it adds value to their platform. As much as we can criticise Intel,when it comes to gaming they tend to have the edge,hence why so many reviewers still use them,and I think even RTG for some tests.

The issue is say with Zen3,if they win in everything,why would they care?? They are the fastest,so you would buy them anyway else,on laptop or desktop?? It's an added cost,so either go with them or slower Intel.

They did this with the Athlon 64,as they went from socket A,to two different sockets,and dropped the consumer socket far earlier,and unified on the enthusiast socket. Then they introduced an enthusiast dual socket(QuadFX) and it went down the drain in just over a year.Like I mentioned earlier,will Socket TR4 add Zen3 support?? Socket X399 went kaput in a short time too,ie,if you started with Threadripper 2 you basically had a one generation socket. I personally don't like where this is heading,but it's like deja vue for me!

That's fine just don;'t expect people to be rolling out the apologies for Intel.

Criticize Amd all you want and please keep them honest but don't do It as a means to excuse Intel, do It because It's the right thing to do.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

This is just petulant trolling now. Stop it.

That's fine just don;'t expect people to be rolling out the apologies for Intel.

Criticize Amd all you want and please keep them honest but don't do It as a means to excuse Intel, do It because It's the right thing to do.

It isn't really about excusing Intel despite my sarcasm. If you look back at the reasons given why Intel keeps pushing out new motherboards,it was not because OEMs couldn't support older motherboards. It was because Intel and a number of OEMs didn't want all the support costs,etc - it was about money and "user experience". They made the excuse for years. Despite this plenty of people trolled in Intel threads pointing fingers at them and AMD trolled Intel by saying the same:

"The alternative to this BIOS 'problem,' which we find truly repugnant, is simply breaking socket compatibility with every new generation of CPU. Nobody can keep their old motherboard and upgrade, anymore. Nobody would ever have to worry about a BIOS update again... but they would also never get to keep their investment ever again. To us, that is not the right thing to do. It seems hostile and abusive to arbitrarily prevent users from keeping the same motherboard, which may cost a few hundred dollars, just to make the upgrade process a little 'neater' on paper. So we do what we can to support in-socket upgrades as we have with Socket AM4."

Now people are rushing to defend all this for the SAME reasons,Intel and OEMs said they wouldn't support older Intel motherboards. It was about money and "user experience". Just because it's AMD's turn to do the same and point out the same reasons,makes it no less defendable or excusable than if Intel did it. Either call it out in BOTH cases,or don't call it out at all. So if anyone thinks what AMD has done is fine,by extension what Intel has done is fine too,otherwise its hypocrisy.

People don't appreciate AMD playing the "good guy" is a marketing move,and some of the people who work in AMD in a marketing role,worked at Nvidia and Intel too. Because by playing the "good guy" we put up with more subpar stuff from them,ie,driver problems and other issues. We give them a pass on more issues than other companies. It works in their favour.

 

[james.miller]

They did this with the Athlon 64,as they went from socket A,to two different sockets,and dropped the consumer socket far earlier,and unified on the enthusiast socket. Then they introduced an enthusiast dual socket(QuadFX) and it went down the drain in just over a year.

Oh there were even more than that. S940, S939, S754, Socket F (QuadFX)...

 

[Doobedoo]

It isn't really. If you look back at the reasons given why Intel keeps pushing out new motherboards,it was not because OEMs couldn't support older motherboards. It was because Intel and a number of OEMs didn't want all the support costs,etc - it was about money and "user experience". They made the excuse for years. Despite this plenty of people trolled in Intel threads pointing fingers at them and AMD trolled Intel by saying the same:



Now people are rushing to defend all this for the SAME reasons,Intel and OEMs said they wouldn't support older Intel motherboards. It was about money and "user experience". Just because it's AMD's turn to do the same and point out the same reasons,makes it no less defendable or excusable than if Intel did it. Either call it out in BOTH cases,or don't call it out at all.

People don't appreciate AMD playing the "good guy" is a marketing move,and some of the people who work in AMD in a marketing role,worked at Nvidia and Intel too.

Absolutely and I have been guilty of that too. So what are the issues and would you say their would be a solution to those problems?

So we do what we can to support in-socket upgrades as we have with Socket AM4

Are they wrong?

Also yes same engineers, same marketers and more importantly same Investors. Again nothing new with that.

Never the less I despise Intel, Greed and Capitalism but It ain't going to change so I navigate the world as I see fit trying to stick to my principles as and where I can. I will give Amd my money over Intel 7 days of the week and twice on a Sunday, providing they meet my needs. Right now Amd stiil meets my needs and Intel can still do one.

Again we still ain't sure exactly how this is going to pan out, Zen3 is nowhere to be seen and we're not even sure If It's going to worth the money anyway. Amd certainly need to sort out their own house first before they themselves aim jibes at Intel. Those that have had multi gen cpu support be grateful, those that got caught short be mindful. Pitchforks not needed.

 

[Chuk_Chuk]

I just can't get my head around how you can be so oblivious to the bigger picture. Even amongst enthusiasts, there are many levels of knowledge and experience. That easily translates to all levels of expertise and computer awareness.
.

I get the bigger picture and understand the theoretical problem AMD has. My issues is applying it to the real world, it seems to come across as a big problem in theory but highly unlikely to cause AMD a lot of bad press if it happens in the real world (which is what they are trying to avoid). However considering your personnal example see below.

I was building PCs for years before I knew what a BIOS update was. I knew what the BIOS itself was and what to poke around with, but that is an entirely different kettle of fish to BIOS support, microcode updates and flashing. In fact, my first BIOS incompatibility was a friend upgrading his Sandy Bridge system to Ivy Bridge. He literally went as far as "Ivy Bridge is socket 1155 and I already have one of those motherboards" and it didn't work. Granted it didn't take me long to research what the issue was, but nonetheless it was the first time I'd encountered the need to flash a new BIOS to support the next generation of CPUs.


Then what a small world you must live in. "This Ryzen is AM4, this motherboard is AM4, therefore it must fit". What is there to "figure out"? The 2 matching words are on the damn boxes. And therein lies the problem with messy support of the Ryzen range so far. WE know that just because both bits of kit are AM4 and mechanically compatible, they are not compatible at a BIOS level, but Joe Average will not. The very second Joe Average starts Googling "BIOS update to support Ryzen 4000" then they are no longer Joe Average.

It's really not a hard concept to understand.

In both your examples the chipset is irrelvant. B550 is still an AM4 socket. If they performed the thread bare research necessary to figure out that they have an AM4 socket and Ryzen 4000 fits in an AM4 socket (which it will) and somehow managed to avoid anything to do with chipsets, then gating Ryzen 4000 at the chipset level doesn't stop the example you have listed from occuring. It is arguably worst as they will be unable to return the CPU because by the time they find out it will have been installed in the system.

Lets say that Ryzen 4000 works on B450 with a driver update. Well B550 and X570 will still need a BIOS update to work with Ryzen 4000 and Ryzen 5000 (if it is AM4). Unless AMDs plan is to have all motherboard literally last 1 CPU generation there will always be a motherboard of some description that needs a BIOS update to work with the CPU that comes after its release.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Oh there were even more than that. S940, S939, S754, Socket F (QuadFX)...

Also,the whole + versions of AM2,AM3 and FM2,which complicated things too. Oh well it's back to the old days again!

Absolutely and I have been guilty of that too. So what are the issues and would you say their would be a solution to those problems?



Are they wrong?

Also yes same engineers, same marketers and more importantly same Investors. Again nothing new with that.

Never the less I despise Intel, Greed and Capitalism but It ain't going to change so I navigate the world as I see fit trying to stick to my principles as and where I can. I will give Amd my money over Intel 7 days of the week and twice on a Sunday, providing they meet my needs. Right now Amd stiil meets my needs and Intel can still do one.

Again we still ain't sure exactly how this is going to pan out, Zen3 is nowhere to be seen and we're not even sure If It's going to worth the money anyway. Amd certainly need to sort out their own house first before they themselves aim jibes at Intel. Those that have had multi gen cpu support be grateful, those that got caught short be mindful. Pitchforks not needed.

The problem,is again AMD is playing the role as it suits them. The issue is when they were in a better situation all those years ago,they changed tact very quickly.

The sad thing,despite people moaning at the people complaining about this,if people said nothing,it is doubtful anything would happen. Apparently B350/X370 wasn't going to be Zen2 compatible until people got annoyed it wouldn't happen,and AMD/OEMs had to change direction.

People have to appreciate before the Athlon 64,AMD was all about supporting sockets for a longtime - see how that it all went down the drain,once they were more competitive. They literally threw people under the bus with sockets. QuadFX was by far the worst,as Intel was starting to claw back by then,and it was some of their most committed fans,who bought into it. They could have supported it,but basically didn't bother.

The best thing is do what Steve at GN said(the statement is below),just stop sending out this vague marketing,etc. He told them this last year. Even some of the "incompetence" we talk about,people in the industry have tried communicating with them regarding this,and nothing has changed.

Play it straight,and stop making claims,or vague statements which cause you problems later.




The products will sell themselves!

 

[Gerard]

Got the email through ebay today, compromised account etc so been refunded, not really a surprise.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Got the email through ebay today, compromised account etc so been refunded, not really a surprise.

A shame,as you would have been sorted out for a while otherwise!

 

[Gerard]

A shame,as you would have been sorted out for a while otherwise!

Yup

 

[Doobedoo]

Also,the whole + versions of AM2,AM3 and FM2,which complicated things too. Oh well it's back to the old days again!



The problem,is again AMD is playing the role as it suits them. The issue is when they were in a better situation all those years ago,they changed tact very quickly.

The sad thing,despite people moaning at the people complaining about this,if people said nothing,it is doubtful anything would happen. Apparently B350/X370 wasn't going to be Zen2 compatible until people got annoyed it wouldn't happen,and AMD/OEMs had to change direction.

People have to appreciate before the Athlon 64,AMD was all about supporting sockets for a longtime - see how that it all went down the drain,once they were more competitive. They literally threw people under the bus with sockets. QuadFX was by far the worst,as Intel was starting to claw back by then,and it was some of their most committed fans,who bought into it. They could have supported it,but basically didn't bother.

The best thing is do what Steve at GN said(the statement is below),just stop sending out this vague marketing,etc. He told them this last year. Even some of the "incompetence" we talk about,people in the industry have tried communicating with them regarding this,and nothing has changed.

Play it straight,and stop making claims,or vague statements which cause you problems later.



The products will sell themselves!

Ok Cat but you said this days ago and with the upmost respect to you, your just repeating the same thing over and over. I get why people are bringing it up I just don't understand why we are still talking about the same things.

I want whats best for everyone but let's keep it constructive. Asking people to start apologizing to Intel won't get you far I wouldn't have thought whether you're right or wrong.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Ok Cat but you said this days ago and with the upmost respect to you, your just repeating the same thing over and over. I get why people are bringing it up I just don't understand why we are still talking about the same things.

I want whats best for everyone but let's keep it constructive. Asking people to start apologizing to Intel won't get you far I wouldn't have thought whether you're right or wrong.

It was because I was being sarcastic - the fact is people keep defending AMD over this,but I find it funny Intel is still getting moaned at it over it. If you have been around long enough,you will have seen AMD pull the same stunts,so it's a slippery road of defence,as I certainly see where it will head,ie,deja vue! The issue is once you take one companies explanations for why it is OK,that means Intel also will not change it's position,so basically everyone looses. You saw that with GPU pricing when people predicted what would happen with the market,many disagreed and now see what has happened. It's not going back to what it used to be.

I am kind of surprised people don't realise some of the history - Martini said it more than a few times too. I just hope some of the other rumoured lockouts don't happen,as I think it will be oil to the fire. Those would make even less sense - we will see over the next 3 months!

 

[Doobedoo]

Well I don’t we can expect Intel to change anytime soon stopping official support is one thing but changing socket pins for no good reason is another. Anyway circular arguements.

I must admit history is not my strong suit neither a particular interest of mine. Live for today and all that . I still think it’s better just to wait and see what happens and if single or double socket generations is all we get then so be it. Those that upgrade every generation will have to pay for the privilege, those of us that don’t are no worse off.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

At least I can have more time to save for Zen4 and DDR5.

 

[Augustus]

Discuss:

Zen is an SoC and is bound to a chipset by a bios.

If the chipset was initially ignored any Zen CPU would work in any AM4 socket with basic generic CPU-biased microcode.

 

[Doobedoo]

At least I can have more time to save for Zen4 and DDR5.

No don’t be mentioning DDR5 and Zen4 my wallet will start to get very grumpy .

I’ll be fine for a while I think. Zen3 if I like the look of it but won’t be going Ddr5 for at least the second gen of cpus. Who knows what the landscape will be like by then.

 

[pc-guy]

The problem is whether AMD will try and emulate what Intel is doing once they win,as Intel still makes tons of money doing this. ATM,things like the socket compatbility works in their favour against Intel,as it adds value to their platform. As much as we can criticise Intel,when it comes to gaming they tend to have the edge,hence why so many reviewers still use them,and I think even RTG for some tests.

The issue is say with Zen3,if they win in everything,why would they care?? They are the fastest,so you would buy them anyway else,on laptop or desktop?? It's an added cost,so either go with them or slower Intel.

They did this with the Athlon 64,as they went from socket A,to two different sockets,and dropped the consumer socket far earlier,and unified on the enthusiast socket. Then they introduced an enthusiast dual socket(QuadFX) and it went down the drain in just over a year.Like I mentioned earlier,will Socket TR4 add Zen3 support?? Socket X399 went kaput in a short time too,ie,if you started with Threadripper 2 you basically had a one generation socket. I personally don't like where this is heading,but it's like deja vue for me! I think it is inevitable sadly.

you are right in many respects regarding AMD historic behaviour. However in the past AMD has never came out and laid out socket compatibilities like they have now and also they have not actively marketed their socket compatibility as a selling point like currently. So it is a broken promise and misleading consumer not just a matter of ripping people off.

intel is terrible at doing this and it is wrong for them to do it. So saying it is wrong and someone else has done wrong as well, so now it is ok doesn’t make much sense. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

lastly, intel can keep the same sock since skylake but they didn’t. Why...they want to make more money off reharshed chipsets and to help their board partners to make more money and to keep internet and YouTube buzzing with intel product releases every 6months.

before Zen, I bought into intel’s Z97 platform as the 4770k was a tick and there was meant to be a tock. But it never came. Before the 6000 series requiring all new board and DDR4. Intel at the time was actively advertising their tick-tock road map and platform compatibility etc. So they are guilty of the same ploy.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

No don’t be mentioning DDR5 and Zen4 my wallet will start to get very grumpy .

I’ll be fine for a while I think. Zen3 if I like the look of it but won’t be going Ddr5 for at least the second gen of cpus. Who knows what the landscape will be like by then.

It might take me a while....I didn't say how long it would take!!

you are right in many respects regarding AMD historic behaviour. However in the past AMD has never came out and laid out socket compatibilities like they have now and also they have not actively marketed their socket compatibility as a selling point like currently. So it is a broken promise and misleading consumer not just a matter of ripping people off.

intel is terrible at doing this and it is wrong for them to do it. So saying it is wrong and someone else has done wrong as well, so now it is ok doesn’t make much sense. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

lastly, intel can keep the same sock since skylake but they didn’t. Why...they want to make more money off reharshed chipsets and to help their board partners to make more money and to keep internet and YouTube buzzing with intel product releases every 6months.

before Zen, I bought into intel’s Z97 platform as the 4770k was a tick and there was meant to be a tock. But it never came. Before the 6000 series requiring all new board and DDR4. Intel at the time was actively advertising their tick-tock road map and platform compatibility etc. So they are guilty of the same ploy.

I don't disagree with what you said,I just think if we criticise Intel for doing this,AMD deserves it too,if not we can't really pull one up and not the other.

 

[Doobedoo]

Nope but we can keep things into perspective. Amd have still done much right but apparently they've still got much to do.

I'm more interested in the physical limitations behind the move. We've heard bios sizes being touted which is plausible at least to me who is less technically knowledgeable on such matters. The real questions is, this must be surmountable surely in today's day and age we can't have this being used as an excuse. What are the problems? How are you going to get around them and if you Amd or Intel won't get around them, then why is that?

Please chip in with some answers.

 

[pc-guy]

don't disagree with what you said,I just think if we criticise Intel for doing this,AMD deserves it too,if not we can't really pull one up and not the other.

I don’t think anyone think whatever AMD is pulling is ok.

I think the bone is your sarcastic comment about “apologies for intel”.

If I was intel marketing guys, I would be laughing my head off right now. AMD created this BS all by themselves. And they dug a pretty deep hole over the last 4 years to bury themselves in. I mean, with some work and some money, I am sure AMD can dig themselves out of it. After all Lisa Su went into AMD to produce Ryzen processors to demonstrate to the world that AMD can make CPU. I think ultimately they are gunning for the OEM and server sector. While the High end desktop processors are probably gonna remain a niche and enthusiast market. While this niche market is small in revenues and capitalisation, it is vocal. Al the YouTube, review sites and tech sites are all about the Ryzen and threadrippers. Very few if at all any does Epyc reviews. So if AMD fails this market then they will get a pasting.

 

[Nutella33]

Nope but we can keep things into perspective. Amd have still done much right but apparently they've still got much to do.

I'm more interested in the physical limitations behind the move. We've heard bios sizes being touted which is plausible at least to me who is less technically knowledgeable on such matters. The real questions is, this must be surmountable surely in today's day and age we can't have this being used as an excuse. What are the problems? How are you going to get around them and if you Amd or Intel won't get around them, then why is that?

Please chip in with some answers.

Your man Steve has just gone into this with a new video, its a pretty interesting listen if you are into this stuff.