*** AMD "Zen 4" thread (inc AM5/APU discussion) ***

[4K8KW10]

"Like I said many times, wide SIMD is kind of stupid in CPUs, I just hope AVX512 doesn't ruin the power consumption of these chips."

https://www.techpowerup.com/279129/amd-zen-4-microarchitecture-to-support-avx-512

Bulldozer 2 is coming.

 

[timorous]

"Like I said many times, wide SIMD is kind of stupid in CPUs, I just hope AVX512 doesn't ruin the power consumption of these chips."

https://www.techpowerup.com/279129/amd-zen-4-microarchitecture-to-support-avx-512

Bulldozer 2 is coming.

If you want more cores go ThreadRipper. I don't see a use case, at the moment, for more than 16 cores on a desktop platform but if AMD make AM5 large enough they can easily do iodie + 3 chiplets for 24 cores on desktop.

For bulldozer 2 to happen AMD would need to make 16 core chiplets in the same 72mm² die area and reduce IPC. That is not the path AMD are taking here. Makes me glad Lisa is in charge and not someone like you because AMD would be bankrupt if you were in charge.

 

[4K8KW10]

If you want more cores go ThreadRipper. I don't see a use case, at the moment, for more than 16 cores on a desktop platform but if AMD make AM5 large enough they can easily do iodie + 3 chiplets for 24 cores on desktop.

For bulldozer 2 to happen AMD would need to make 16 core chiplets in the same 72mm² die area and reduce IPC. That is not the path AMD are taking here. Makes me glad Lisa is in charge and not someone like you because AMD would be bankrupt if you were in charge.

Wrong.
In order to Bulldozer 2 to happen you need Intel to have a very strong lineup which it will in the next couple of years, together with slow and power hungry processors from AMD.

 

[timorous]

Wrong.
In order to Bulldozer 2 to happen you need Intel to have a very strong lineup which it will in the next couple of years, together with slow and power hungry processors from AMD.

Bulldozer was the epitome of moar corez. Sacrifice IPC and single core performance expecting more usable cores to make up for it. It failed because both are important. Bulldozer IPC at launch was worse than Phenom 2. In single thread performance the 2500K was 44% faster than the FX-8150 despite having a lower clockspeed.

There is no way that intel are going to have that kind of lead going forward. Rocket lake looks even with zen3 and if zen4 is +29% ipc that will be faster than the large alder lake cores. It also won't have to rely on windows scheduler putting the correct workload on the correct cores. If anything Alder Lake has the biggest potential to be the next P4/Bulldozer due to scheduler issues.

 

[4K8KW10]

Bulldozer was the epitome of moar corez. Sacrifice IPC and single core performance expecting more usable cores to make up for it. It failed because both are important. Bulldozer IPC at launch was worse than Phenom 2. In single thread performance the 2500K was 44% faster than the FX-8150 despite having a lower clockspeed.

There is no way that intel are going to have that kind of lead going forward. Rocket lake looks even with zen3 and if zen4 is +29% ipc that will be faster than the large alder lake cores. It also won't have to rely on windows scheduler putting the correct workload on the correct cores. If anything Alder Lake has the biggest potential to be the next P4/Bulldozer due to scheduler issues.

Bulldozer didn't have more cores - it actually had up to 4 modules and 8 threads, and Intel had 4 cores and 8 threads at the same time.
There were applications in which the Bulldozer at launch was faster than Phenom 2, the software needed adjustments.

And there is always something after Alder Lake. This is why I said - in a couple of years, not later this year.


edit: lol Intel had a 6-core 12-thread Core i7-980X as early as Q1 2010, while the original Bulldozer FX-8150 was released in Q4 2011 !

 

[HACO]

Exactly. They chose to invest in fatter cores instead of more cores.
Which means lower system responsiveness in the future.
Future systems will behave better with higher core count, not with fat cores.

The level of delusion here is just mind boggling.

"Like I said many times, wide SIMD is kind of stupid in CPUs, I just hope AVX512 doesn't ruin the power consumption of these chips."

https://www.techpowerup.com/279129/amd-zen-4-microarchitecture-to-support-avx-512

Bulldozer 2 is coming.

Regardless of the merits of the claim against SIMD and AVX512 (I'm not a fan either), you do realise that Intel has been doing the exact same thing as well? How does AMD doing it a sign of Bulldozer 2 but Intel doing it for years and years is not?

 

[Deleted member 209350]

Pretty much. At some point just packing extra cores gives diminishing returns even for embarrassingly parallel workloads, the chip will thermal/power throttle and the cores have to slow down, giving you even worse performance than fewer less throttled cores.

These stuff are modelled in very sophisticated ways when they develop the chips and they take all of that into account and eventually decide which potential products are viable or not, but maybe a random user on forums demanding 128-cores knows better .

For sure, I mean we been saying for a while now that PC games should be on 8 cores as standard, and we're still waiting for that day...

Saying that, we are headed into a future where more cores are needed and it will become the norm - But there's still at least a few years until we are there

 

[4K8KW10]

Regardless of the merits of the claim against SIMD and AVX512 (I'm not a fan either), you do realise that Intel has been doing the exact same thing as well? How does AMD doing it a sign of Bulldozer 2 but Intel doing it for years and years is not?

Maybe it's Intel's plan to sabotage AMD's progress by introducing bad instructions which will mislead AMD to join, and then Intel will find a way either to have it with less power or to drop it altogether.

Look at how Nvidia is much better in the ray-tracing technology, while AMD cannot compete.

 

[Doobedoo]

Your a weird one that’s for sure. Amd are fine it’s Intel that are playing catch-up can we put a stop to your troll like behaviour now please. We already have 1 Dave we don’t need another.

 

[4K8KW10]

AMD's problem is the new emerging competition from ARM.
Trust me, Zen 4 will not look fine at all against the new ARM breed.

 

[muziqaz]

Ah, the basement CPU designer strikes again So far, everything AMD done with each Zen iteration proved to be a winner and progress. There hasn't been any. missteps yet. I think it is reasonable to assume that AMD, while taking their time with AVX512 support, comes up with decent approach towards this type of SIMD. I really doubt it will be quick reactive afterthought.
With Intel you could see early on, that they slowed down to the crawl, waaaaaay before Zen. With AMD now there are no signs of slowdown. AMD is like freight train, and dreaming of some Intel savior 2-3 gens in advance is kind stupid, since we have no clue what those gens bring from either side (Intel and AMD).

P.S. Intel does not do ARM.
And ARM needs to crack the markets AMD/Intel are in. That is still quite some time away

 

[Doobedoo]

AMD's problem is the new emerging competition from ARM.
Trust me, Zen 4 will not look fine at all against the new ARM breed.

Amd’s only problem is making enough chips to satisfy demand. All this doom and gloom coming from you it’s weird, one minute your waxing lyrical the next your going full on Dave on us. Chill out Amd are fine and they will continue to be fine for the foreseeable future.

Can we now close this thread please we already have another and this one is becoming troll central.

 

[HACO]

AMD's problem is the new emerging competition from ARM.
Trust me, Zen 4 will not look fine at all against the new ARM breed.

Funny enough, that's something Intel is mostly worried about, not AMD. There are four x86 segments that will be affected by recent breakthroughs in ARM CPUS: Macs, Servers, Storage/Services (NAS, NICs, etc), and ultraportable laptops. Intel has had a 95%+ of x86 marketshare in all four segments. AMD has nothing to lose to ARM, and a lot to gain from a struggling Intel.

For the next 5 years, ARM is by far Intel's problem, not AMD's. In fact AMD, due to their IPC advantage and flexibility on fabrication, are much better suited to compete against ARM products than Intel are.

 

[humbug]

@4K8KW10 Good Grief man... for just about 4 years now AMD have been advancing faster than Intel, to the point now where AMD are knocking out twice the performance as Intel on Mainstream and beyond even that HEDT and servers, Their IPC is higher than Intel, their per core performance is higher than Intel, 1080P gaming performance is higher than Intel, their power efficiency is twice that of Intel.

Rocket Lake will not dethrone Zen 3, Alder Lake will not beat Zen 4, how long are you going to hold on to this idea that Intel's crushing of AMD is just around the corner? This is a serious coping mechanism problem you have going here.

 

[humbug]

Intel have been pushing AVX 512 as the new way to slice bread for years and just when its starting gain traction AMD adds it to their architecture.

Damn you AMD!!!!!!!

 

[4K8KW10]

Call me when AMD's products are so good that the OEMs buy only them. For now, it is not happening.
Yes, Ryzen 9 5950X is twice as fast as the Core i9-10900K but also doesn't cost the same but considerably more.

 

[Doobedoo]

Call me when AMD's products are so good that the OEMs buy only them. For now, it is not happening.
Yes, Ryzen 9 5950X is twice as fast as the Core i9-10900K but also doesn't cost the same but considerably more.

We know this it's been like for a long time ever since Intel begun bribing OEM's. It's a shame but nothing new but It's part of the reason why I call them a scummy company.

 

[humbug]

We know this it's been like for a long time ever since Intel begun bribing OEM's. It's a shame but nothing new but It's part of the reason why I call them a scummy company.

Intel can keep paying them off for all i care, despite this AMD are still gaining ground and eventually this will catch up with Intel.

 

[Doobedoo]

Intel can keep paying them off for all i care, despite this AMD are still gaining ground and eventually this will catch up with Intel.

My only regret like all of us is that I didn't buy shares when they down in the dumps. I think AMD are in a great position despite the scummy tactics of Intel, once a cheat always a cheat as they say.

Because of it I will never recommend an Intel Cpu or buy another unless it's drastically better performance for less money. They are completely irrelevant to me.

 

[humbug]

My only regret like all of us is that I didn't buy shares when they down in the dumps. I think AMD are in a great position despite the scummy tactics of Intel, once a cheat always a cheat as they say.

Because of it I will never recommend an Intel Cpu or buy another unless it's drastically better performance for less money. They are completely irrelevant to me.

$2 in early 2016, then Zen hit and it started a vertical assent, these days around +/- $90, the company is currently valued at over $100 Billion and once the $35 Billion Xilinx acquisition goes through at the end of this year AMD's revenue and value will take another jump up.

Intel's long term debt is a ticking time bomb, with competition from Nvidia, Now ARM and AMD who are still expanding into ever expanding markets, Xilinx acquisition, Samsung, Tesla.... AMD like Nvidia and ARM are only going to get stronger, If GPU's don't work out for Intel, again; They will start shrinking and that's when that Debt will start weighing them down like an Anvil around their neck.

Keep it up Intel, the more money you blow on manipulating the market the worse it will get for you in the long term.