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*** AMD "Zen" thread (inc AM4/APU discussion) ***

Caporegime
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Cinebench is FPU heavy benchmark.

No other benchmark shows the same disparity that Blender does.
You've got a hard time making people think an i5 4670K is better at games than an FX83, but if you suggested that you'd be able to run them both maxed out and have the i5 4670K still be faster, it'd be a blood bath.
AMD already had pretty good integer performance with the FX83, it's great to see the improvement, and I'm very positive with the handbrake result.
If AMD had came out with a Cinebench run and it was faster than the i7 6900, I'd have ridiculous levels of hype.

I'm still hyped, but blender's never really been mentioned as a benchmark on here till AMD's Zen preview.
 
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Soldato
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Cinebench is FPU heavy benchmark.

No other benchmark shows the same disparity that Blender does.
You've got a hard time making people think an i5 4670K is better at games than an FX83, but if you suggested that you'd be able to run them both maxed out and have the i5 4670K still be faster, it'd be a blood bath.

It says on their site that it is a CPU Benchmark and that they, quote 'Unlike abstract benchmarks, which only test specific functions of CPUs or GPUs, CINEBENCH offers a real-world benchmark that incorporates a user's common tasks within Cinema 4D to measure a system's performance.' So it will be testing a processor integer performance as well for a full CPU benchmark. Since it would not be a full CPU benchmark if it was heavy on the FPU.

Which is where i believe the disparity is coming from due to the way both programs work. And when it comes to games with fewer threads in DX11, then yeah, the 4670k will give better overall performance.
 
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Caporegime
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Cinebench and Blender do the same thing.
They're both FPU heavy.

Spiel on pages doesn't change that.

Besides, it changes little.
I'll wait till Zen's launch.
Price depending I'll buy the 8C/16T or 6C/12T if there's some ITX boards, and finances and date of release, since I've just bought a house and moving in the supposed Jan launch.
 
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Soldato
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Cinebench and Blender do the same thing.
They're both FPU heavy.

Spiel on pages doesn't change that.

It might be FPU heavy in part of it, but it is a CPU benchmark. That means it must also test integer performance then weight the integer and fpu performance when giving a final score.

Otherwise it would not be a proper CPU benchmark since you are only testing FPU performance. if you get what i mean.

Whereas Blender is a production piece of software and not geared as a CPU benchmark. Therefore it being FPU heavy throughout does not matter. Which is why AMD used it as a benchmark against the 6900k, to show that they had greatly improved their FPU performance.
 
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Caporegime
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It might be FPU heavy in part of it, but it is a CPU benchmark. That means it must also test integer performance then weight the integer and fpu performance when giving a final score.

Otherwise it would not be a proper CPU benchmark since you are only testing FPU performance.

Assuming what you're saying is accurate (I don't believe so). How is that any different from Cinebench rendering an image and giving a result, and blender rendering an image and giving a result?

As to your edit, Cinema 4D is a real program, that serves a purpose, just like 3DSMax and Blender. It's a production piece of software, upon which Cinebench is based.
 
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Soldato
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Assuming what you're saying is accurate (I don't believe so). How is that any different from Cinebench rendering an image and giving a result, and blender rendering an image and giving a result?

As to your edit, Cinema 4D is a real program, that serves a purpose, just like 3DSMax and Blender.

Yeah, they use Cinema 4D as part of Cinebench to test FPU performance. But there must be other algorithms that are run to test the integer performance during the rendering.

But as i said, For cinebench to be a real and full CPU Benchmark as they tout it, it would have to test both FPU and Integer performance.

Where as Cinema 4D, 3dsmax, blender etc on their own can be as FPU heavy as they want since they are not geared towards being full CPU Benchmarks.

And what good is a full CPU benchmark if it only tests FPU performance?
 
Caporegime
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A lot of what you're saying is speculation. You're adding meaning to marketing spiel.
I'm happy to agree to disagree.

I don't even really have any reservations about the possibility of AMD matching Intels FPU performance, or even bettering it.
But they're not going to convince me of that with Blender.
 
Soldato
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A lot of what you're saying is speculation. You're adding meaning to marketing spiel.
I'm happy to agree to disagree.

But you agree at least that for a CPU benchmark to be a full and fair benchmark that it has to test both Integer and Float performance?

While 3D rendering is intrinsically Float Heavy in nature?
 
Caporegime
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But you agree at least that for a CPU benchmark to be a full and fair benchmark that it has to test both Integer and Float performance?

While 3D rendering is intrinsically Float Heavy in nature?

No, I don't agree with the top. Why does that have to be the case?
Gaming is FPU heavy, if you want to have a benchmark which showcases gaming prowess, you'd bench your FPU performance.
If a benchmark was to tout itself as full and wants to do both, I'd expect separate results for FPU and integer performance. I have no problem with them not doing that when it's not heavy on one aspect of the CPU however.

If every benchmark did both you'd never get what you want from benchmarking.

And obviously 3D rendering's float heavy.
 
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Soldato
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No, I don't agree with the top. Why does that have to be the case?
Gaming is FPU heavy, if you want to have a benchmark which showcases gaming prowess, you'd bench your FPU performance.
If a benchmark was to tout itself as full and wants to do both, I'd expect separate results for FPU and integer performance.

If every benchmark did both you'd never get what you want from benchmarking.

And obviously 3D rendering's float heavy.

If it is a CPU benchmark then it must to test both Integer and FPU performance. Of course it must be the case since something touting itself as a CPU benchmark must test CPU performance as a whole. Not just part of it.

So going to leave this here for now.
 
Caporegime
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If it is a CPU benchmark then it must to test both Integer and FPU performance. Of course it must be the case since something touting itself as a CPU benchmark must test CPU performance as a whole. Not just part of it.

Again, we'll just agree to disagree.
Although, surely by your logic I should be expecting Zen to be a margin above the i7 6900 in Cinebench then? If that's the case I'll rescind my argument when the time passes.
 
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Soldato
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Again, we'll just agree to disagree.
Although, surely by your logic I should be expecting Zen to be a margin above the i7 6900 in Cinebench then? If that's the case I'll rescind my argument when the time passes.

Yeah, if cinebench has no bias and integer and float performance are similar, then cinebench should show them both having around the same score under similar conditions to the AMD event
 
Soldato
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so i dont think we will see anything much now solid until release.

i do hope amd can compete will get lazy intel back pushing forward again.i just hope people are realistic in their expectations and not still in dream mode when launched.

Which is what I posted too. I would not believe any of them cheesy review sites nor AMD promo's I just need to see the real product and decide after its been out a few weeks. :)
 
Caporegime
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After a recent experience I now think AMD are ****ed. Not because of bad products, but because organisations like the one I work for (local gov) will not *ever* consider using them.

We have just finalised our min spec requirement for buying new workstations.

In the discussions about what we should stipulate, the bosses made it quite clear they would only ever have Intel CPUs in any of the servers or workstations.

When AMD was mentioned, they actually laughed. "Oh they're cheap imitations for home users. Not for serious work!"

When the question was asked, "Are we locking ourselves into buying Intel forever?" the answer was pretty much "It's Intel or nothing."

So yeah, with attitudes like this AMD just can not succeed. They can't overturn the perception that Intel is the only choice.

Pretty much how we'll never consider anything other than Windows, we'll never consider anything other than Intel hardware. The end.
 
Caporegime
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I think Zen will be good, I've said nothing contrary to that.

But if Cinebench is so "bad" and "Intel biased", then why is it a 4670K is faster than an FX83 in Blender (Baring in mind Blender's being touted as some brilliant benchmark) but the opposite is shown in Cinebench (As you'd expect). This is something that would *never* be accepted because it's an outlier. An FX83 going 100% versus an i5 4670K is faster than the i5, not slower.

I understand people being hyped and positive for Zen (As I am) but it suddenly seems like because a certain benchmark supports an agenda, it's fair game.

I'm not saying the results are faked or anything like that, I just have absolutely no faith in a benchmark which posts outliers as per the FX83 versus i5.

I'm not shocked AMD released the wrong benchmark files originally either, but I've got no conspiracy for that. It's not an AMD product unless there's a mess up along the way.

You don understand right that in Cinebench the single threaded test shows a 4690k as scoring 154 to the FX8370's 102.... so you know it shows the 4960k as 50% faster IPC?

The 4960k has 4 cores and no hyperthreading, it's multithreaded score is 599, close to perfect scaling. The FX8370 gets a 643 score, a no where near perfect scaling score. It's still an 8 core cpu capable of running 8 threads where the 4690k is a 4 core cpu capable of running 4 threads.

There have been a half dozen pages now of you saying it's faster in Blender than the FX8370 but slower in Cinebench... but that is simply wrong. The 4690k is beating it in IPC by 50% and beating it in multicore scaling massively.


http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1261?vs=1709

Also, it's not an outlier there are several places the FX8370 spanks, outright spanks the 4690k, Doplhin benchmark, Agisoft build texture stage, 7-zip.

Also who is touting Blender as a brilliant benchmark? Can you find anyone saying it's an brilliant benchmark at all or is that just to add some hyperbole to your argument again? Blender is not an Intel biased benchmark, it's not depending on Intel compiling it for optimisations and it's actually a real world application.

You don't do work in Cinebench, you can do work in a SEPARATE application which hasn't got the same code or versions. YOu buy Maxon software and work on that, not on Cinebench. You get Blender, you can benchmark in it or work in it, it's that simple. It's an actual real work application that has real world meaning to people, Cinebench has no relevance.

That doesn't make Blender a brilliant benchmark, it makes it a better choice for AMD to showcase. Same with handbrake, it's not a benchmark, it's an actual application people actually use in the real world.

Number of people who do work, personal or professional, in Blender who would buy a new CPU just for more performance in a program that performance is important is magnitudes higher than those who would buy a new CPU because it was faster in Cinebench... yet you still seem to lack the ability to understand why AMD would benchmark something actually relevant to sales.
 
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Soldato
Joined
19 Feb 2011
Posts
5,849
After a recent experience I now think AMD are ****ed. Not because of bad products, but because organisations like the one I work for (local gov) will not *ever* consider using them.

We have just finalised our min spec requirement for buying new workstations.

In the discussions about what we should stipulate, the bosses made it quite clear they would only ever have Intel CPUs in any of the servers or workstations.

When AMD was mentioned, they actually laughed. "Oh they're cheap imitations for home users. Not for serious work!"

When the question was asked, "Are we locking ourselves into buying Intel forever?" the answer was pretty much "It's Intel or nothing."

So yeah, with attitudes like this AMD just can not succeed. They can't overturn the perception that Intel is the only choice.

Pretty much how we'll never consider anything other than Windows, we'll never consider anything other than Intel hardware. The end.

Lol bad boss is a bad boss...

On the other side, I discussed the Zen stuff with my boss, we would definitely consider it if the performance is there, we use mainly VM's at work in our server infrastructure, and are one of the premiere sites within our global leader organisation.

Our PC hardware unfortunately is all bought from Dell, however should dell take up the AMD option we would have no qualms buying their chips, especially as I do most of our buying ;)

Server hardware is slightly different, we can source this where we please within reason.

At the end of the day if the product is suitable we will consider it, if it's as good as Intel and actually cheaper and less TDP what's not to like?

But there are many people like the one you work for who think the most expensive is always best, hence the cost of all our council tax bills hahaha
 
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