Americans shoot down British aircraft

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Originally posted by r1cko
well you don't *know* if the crew are dead. The plane was shot down and the crew are *missing*.

for all you know they could have ejected.. but that doesnt matter, getting a quick punch in about the americans is your main objective here.
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Do they have to be dead for this to be a ridiculous series of events?? The fact is there were warnings before the war that the allies hadn't made steps towards reducing friendly fire incidents. This is proof of that.
 
Originally posted by silverpaw
Do they have to be dead for this to be a ridiculous series of events?? The fact is there were warnings before the war that the allies hadn't made steps towards reducing friendly fire incidents. This is proof of that.
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The US has spent a fortune trying to develop IFF for all its troops. That program is now closed. Instead a NATO program has taken over. The difficulty of such a system has so far defeated all attempts.
 
This is a conflict.. stuff happens. Considering the amount of activity taking place things are going to go wrong.

god knows how many cars will crash on the motorway today, but that different aint it.. oh yeah.. we dont see those crashes on TV all day highly concentrated like we're seeing in this *war zone*.. :o
 
Originally posted by Sleepy
PAC3s are fitted with, and guided by an onboard radar
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Quite right. I was thinking of the older versions which were close detonation fragmentation devices. Basically bloody big shotguns that fired pellets in an arc.

From Boeing
PAC-3 missile's precision guidance system, featuring an active onboard radar seeker, enables complete target destruction through the kinetic energy released by directly hitting the target. The PAC-3 missile achieves catastrophic destruction of the offensive threats and their contents, including chemical and biological agents, as opposed to merely redirecting or damaging the target through the use of conventional fragmentation warheads that are designed to detonate in close proximity to the target.
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(My colouring)

That doesn't auger well :(

[edit] fixed my bad spelling [/edit]
 
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Well said Dolph, I think people need to remember that it is a real war we are fighting and not some sim on a pc/console etc
 
Originally posted by Sleepy
Yeah :(

I think this is a case of no news is bad news :(
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Unfortunately, I would tend to agree with you :(

Patriots fly at Mach 3, so even if they were aware of it's location and hit the afterburners, it would have been a miracle if they got away, or even had time to do anything at all in the way of evasive action.

If they had ejected, I think we would have heard by now, for no ther reason than the MoD and the Americans would have wanted to clear that up straight away.
 
It is off course tragic that any friendly fire happens. However, accident do, and always will happen. THe yanks do indeed have a bad reputation for blue on blue, however, remember, that is most recent wars, most of the fire power has been american, so it is no wonder that also most blue on blue would originate from them.

It is tragic when people die, even more so when its an avoidable accident. They are not confirmed as dead, so i will not talk like they are.

Accidents do happen. They can be tragic indeed.

Mal
 
A tragic accident indeed, but friendly fire does and always will happen I'm afraid. All that can be done is to try and minimize it.

I'm not assuming that the aircrew are dead yet either, but as the news delay gets longer, I would tend to say that it's unfortunately looking more likely that they may be, as despite the undoubted S&R effort, they haven't yet found them :( :(

[edit] Just popped up on the BBC site that "Coalition forces are deeply engaged in the search for the downed RAF plane" [/edit]
 
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look, the point of this thread isnt to bash americans or mr. bush, nor to rant/complain/argue about wartime errors dating back 50 years.

the fact is that the americans have once again hit allied troops.

we dont know if theyre dead, we dont know what went wrong, we dont know.

myself, im just as annoyed as anyone else. im getting sick and tired of hearing about american incompetence when theyre supposed to have the most sophisticated army on the face of the planet.

whatever.
 
Originally posted by Sleepy
Reported on Sky News

An AWACS plane failed to detect the IFF from the tornado, hence the shoot order. If true it looks like a technical or pilot failure by the Tornado
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So it possibly wasnt America's fault, as some of you were so quick to sound off on.

The Patriot, i presume would be set to shoot down anything not transmitting IFF signals.

I suggest you WAIT for news of what happened before you start posting fingers, calling people thick, pointing ":mad: "ness at the American forces etc etc. You all who you were.

Just be a bit more patient before you start pointing the finger.

If this is the case, is is evidence of how good the Patriot system is, and why wasnt the plane transmitting - nothing more and nothing less.
 
im gonna get "shot down" myself for saying this - but i dont think the "average" american is STUPID as such, just over confident in everything that they do and often very ignorant. The same can be said of the forces who are constantly told how great they and their country are.

I mean come on - that grenade incident yesterday was utterly RIDICULOUS! destroying a plane worth a few million, and more importantly, killing 2 highly skilled pilots nowadays must SURELY be seen as a huge military blunder, combat zone or not??

just my 2p.
 
Originally posted by manic_man
im gonna get "shot down" myself for saying this - but i dont think the "average" american is STUPID as such, just over confident in everything that they do and often very ignorant. The same can be said of the forces who are constantly told how great they and their country are.

I mean come on - that grenade incident yesterday was utterly RIDICULOUS! destroying a plane worth a few million, and more importantly, killing 2 highly skilled pilots nowadays must SURELY be seen as a huge military blunder, combat zone or not??

just my 2p.
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what plane are you talking about that was destroyed?

Like others have said when ever there is a war of any kind there is going to be blue on blue accidents. Very few people on these forums know what war is like and I can only assume that with guns being fired words being shots and thoughts running through your head it can be a nightmare. It is very unfortunate whenever anyone dies but the fact is it was an accident and it is a war. Something went wrong somewhere whether it be someone not hearing an order properly or an IFF be broken on the aircraft. it was an accident
 
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Well, from reports it would appear the IFF indicator failed (indicate friend or Foe). If that is indeed the case, then shooting down the aircraft was the correct choice, and the british would have done exactly the same.

It makes no sense to risk the lives of a base on the chance that something not identifying itself might be one of your boys.

-Dolph
 
Originally posted by Dolph
Well, from reports it would appear the IFF indicator failed (indicate friend or Foe). If that is indeed the case, then shooting down the aircraft was the correct choice, and the british would have done exactly the same.

It makes no sense to risk the lives of a base on the chance that something not identifying itself might be one of your boys.

-Dolph
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Thats what a radios for isn't it. BBC TV news report with base commander says they were on track at right height speed etc etc. Surely the ground crontrollers/AWACs talk them in and keep their postion plotted?:confused:
 
All allied aircraft emit a rader ping, tells the Awacs where and what they are. Without it they are just an unidentified object, especially at the distance modern warfare takes place (IE outside visual contact).

It's also possible that if they had lost their IFF they had lost/had problems with Radio.

It's an unfortunate wartime incident, but it's an accepted risk, accepted by the people involved.

It's easy to pass a judgement on what's right or wrong sat here, but we aren't there. What if they thought it was a RAF plane, and it was one of Saddam's carrying a chemical bomb? The damage would have been far worse.

-Dolph
 
Unfortunately at the speed modern aircraft fly at there is no time to wait and see if it is one of our planes or an enemy plane, we rely on electronics to tell us who is friend or foe and have to hope the technology is good enough to prevent accidents such as this, however no technology is foolproof and war is not an exact science so mistakes are always going to happen unfortunately. Coupled with the speed of a Patriot anti aircraft/anti missile missile it does not leave much time for second thoughts once the missile has been fired
 
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