Soldato
"The blade itself incites to deeds of violence" - Homer
Another school shooting in the US
- Thread starter .Griff.
- Start date
That's the entire problem though isn't it.
How do you remove guns from the equation in a country which is obsessed by them, and has so many firearms of all kinds in circulation?
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What is needed is a cultural shift in America's relationship with firearms, and I see no way that is going to happen
Its going to have to be a gradual change and it does require some cultural change too.... getting rid of assault weapons is a good first step... ideally getting people to accept the idea that the 2nd amendment doesn't give you a right to bare all forms arms (even most pro gun people would accept they can't own anti tank missile launchers etc... so there can be some limits).
It would be good if they could remove handguns from the equation too... or at least restrict them. Would require a big buyback program and some heavy taxation on weapons.
Although we do have gangland shootings over here its rare that anyone would carry a firearm routinely - they're often loaned, passed among gang members and only brought out for a specific task (see the Mark Duggan case - he'd only recently acquired the firearm he was traveling with and the only reason he was carrying it was that he was on his way to use it in a murder). Guns that are available here tend to be used by those in the drugs trade... some lone nutcase contemplating a killing spree is going to be hard pressed to acquire one and stands a good chance of getting robbed in the process. Even if said nutcase does acquire one it not likely to be well maintained or reliable - lots of the weapons seized by police are formerly deactivated weapons that have been modified to fire again.
Heh, you then go and post graphs from a pro gun control source
and oddly dating back to 1915? Really only the past 10 years are relevant and even then the figures bounce around.
We are talking about 300 deaths a year from guns, which is why I didn't put a lot of weight to the point in my post, you can't compare cultures. My impression is that Australians don't really care about guns either way and don't glamourise the issue like Americans do.
From looking at police figure they seem to be trending down from the 60's, so no big deal either way I guess.
http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.html
You dismiss that report but other reports referenced here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Australia
Suggest much the same thing, that the trend was already downwards and gun control didn't really do a great deal.
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Caporegime
That's the entire problem though isn't it.
How do you remove guns from the equation in a country which is obsessed by them, and has so many firearms of all kinds in circulation?
I agree entirely with your post, but I can't see anything lasting changing. Some watered down bill will be passed which limits the sale of certain kinds of weapons while doing nothing about the vast numbers already out there. Predictably this will have no effect, the following administration will undo the legislation and we'll be back where we started.
What is needed is a cultural shift in America's relationship with firearms, and I see no way that is going to happen
Too true.
Americas culture won't be changed by whatever law they manage to pass, and it's that culture that needs to change ultimately.
I still believe America needs proper gun control laws, but they won't be able o pass laws like that until the culture changes
Absolutely!
It's akin to drink driving. Here in the UK of course it was once pretty much accepted and tolerated to a good degree, but now it's very frowned upon. We've changed our cultural outlook on it.
In the US, maybe the first step is to stop sexing guns up, and to instead accept them as a tool rather than a fun gadget/accessory. Maybe accepting one is enough for any individual rather than half a dozen or more. Maybe accepting a single low powered gun, with a small magazing, is acceptable rather than assault rifles backed up numerous other guns.
To be frank, their love affair with a device which is aimed to kill as easily as possibly just seems unhealthy, and maybe this view is what needs to initially change.
I'm sure the constitution, which is so often used as a mean at justifying gun ownership in the US, wasn't written with the current day approach in mind - People have dozens of guns each, with the fire power of assault rifles, and treating them more like fashion accessories than a lethal device.
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What problem does that solve?
Did you know in the UK we fit bomb proof glass to high street shops, hardly a pressing threat anymore is it?
People in the US fit heavy doors to their houses for just this reason, are they also foolish for wanting to protect their families with a practical solution?
I don't know why you leap to pooping any point other than your own, I'm merely suggesting ideas that other people have tried and found viable, you are suggesting a gun ban which has already been tried in the US and found not to work - the attitude of the people has to change first and given they have just cleaned out every AR-15 from the shelves in under 24 hours suggests to me that attitude has not changed. Yet you still like to think your solution is the more sensible? Crowd sourcing approval doesn't do anything useful.
Imposing your UK view on how to behave doesn't work for other cultures. Think about every country we have invaded (including the US), eventually their culture reasserts itself. I predict ten minutes after we leave Afganistan they will be killing each other.
Actually it is, unless a twenty something student knows more about American domestic politics than the White House. Go ring Obama, tell him where he's going wrong.
You still making this comparison?
We do not care about guns, the cultures are different.
You're misinterpreting statistics.... firstly, from your own link, its 300 homicides per year (from all means) not 300 deaths per year from guns as you've stated.
That is a downward trend in the percentage of homicides involving guns not a downward trend in the number of gun related deaths (an increase in homicides by other means can also cause this to decrease while the number of gun related deaths remain at the same level)... The previous graphs do show a quite steep decrease in the actual numbers of gun related homicides and suicides immediately following gun control legislation.
Great idea! They should ban Alcohol too! How many people would illegally drink Alcohol?!
Here we go again with this age old ridiculous argument!
Do you honestly believe (a) this argument hasn't been made a thousand times before? (b) and isn't daft?As a society we weigh up risks and freedoms and produce rules arimed at reducing the risks without compromising too much freedom.
For example, I do not have the right to drive at 140mph through towns. Society has deemed a reasonable compromise as 30mph. Now it could reduce it down to 15mph and even more lives would be saved, but society feels the extra deaths caused by keeping to 30mph (instead of 15mph) is tolerable.
We feel the same about alcohol. We're willing to tolerate the illness and death for the freedom to consume it.
In america they simply need to weigh up if their current (rather unhealthy) love affair with fire arms and decide is it worth the cost. If they feel it is not, then address it to some degree... But they need to make that first step, of assigning some sort of cost (in human life) to their freedom to own countless unnecessary firearms.
ah, my bad, thank you
just not reading the titles properlyChecking here
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/australia
Total gun deaths are around that figure but include all the unknowns and suicides.
Australia, annual firearm homicides total
2009: 30
2008: 19
2007: 25
2006: 29
2005: 40
2004: 32
2003: 54
2002: 45
2001: 47
2000: 57
1999: 50
1998: 57
1997: 79
1996: 104
1995: 67
1994: 76
1993: 64
1992: 96
1991: 84
1990: 79
1989: 80
1988: 123
Umm, hard to pick anything significant from double digit deaths other than a slow decline.
I reckon forking out aus$500 million in gun buy backs wasn't really worth it when no related decrease can be shown and when the totals are as low as this anyway, that's about $10 million a person. They even had another school shooting in 2002 so contrary to someone's earlier point, that wasn't the end of it.
Again, I don't think any of this is that significant, still different cultures.
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Here we go again with this age old ridiculous argument!
As a society we weigh up risks and freedoms and produce rules arimed at reducing the risks without compromising too much freedom.
I was talking about Prohibition
They did ban alcohol completely and people drank it anyway.
I'm not sure you can demonstrate a decline up to 96 or 97... (in fact whether you include 88 will have some effect here)
You can however see a decline from that period onwards... though a more meaningful measure is per 100,000 of the population from your link - Australia's population does experience growth due to immigration over that period so the raw totals aren't as meaningful
2009: 0.120
2008: 0.0924 20
2007: 0.12
2006: 0.14
2005: 0.19
2004: 0.220
2003: 0.2726 20
2002: 0.23
2001: 0.24
2000: 0.30
1999: 0.26
1998: 0.30
1997: 0.43
1996: 0.57
1995: 0.37
1994: 0.4326
1993: 0.36
1992: 0.55
1991: 0.49
1990: 0.46
1989: 0.48
1988: 0.74
prior 97 it only gets below 0.40 on two occasions, after 97 the rate doesn't come close.. is mostly below 0.30 and only touches 0.30 twice
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Soldato
The only bit I disagree with in that is restricting ammo, simply because it's pretty damn difficult to implement.
Also, they'll need it when the Zombies take over!
Associate
so this picture taken of my hall closet would be a bit more difficult in the UK?.
this is an older picture before I really started to collect guns.
I can never recall exactly how many I have on hand. they come and go
via trades and such.
they have never assaulted anyone.. probably defective or something.
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this is an older picture before I really started to collect guns.
I can never recall exactly how many I have on hand. they come and go
via trades and such.
they have never assaulted anyone.. probably defective or something.
.
Soldato
so this picture taken of my hall closet would be a bit more difficult in the UK?.
this is an older picture before I really started to collect guns.
I can never recall exactly how many I have on hand. they come and go
via trades and such.
they have never assaulted anyone.. probably defective or something.
.
As I asked before, why does an individual need this sort of fire power? - Why is it 10 guns makes you any safer than 1?
The US' attitude to guns is unhealthly, and to use the constitution to endorse this sort of sick love affair with fire arms makes a mockery of it.
Soldato
The question is, is why when this sort of tragedy happens do people talk constantly about the guns and yet nothing about the lunatic who did it?
Also reading these posts people on here in the main have no idea on what the US law is concerning guns.
On a side note every time the anti gun lobbies attempt to ban guns, gun sales in the US go through the roof.
Also reading these posts people on here in the main have no idea on what the US law is concerning guns.
On a side note every time the anti gun lobbies attempt to ban guns, gun sales in the US go through the roof.
Because he used guns to achieve his goals? And without these guns he most likely wouldn't have been as prolific?
Small penis/Scared to stand and bang.
Don
The US don't exactly have a great love for free health provision either that might have dealt with mental health issues.