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We might see one but I tend to agree mostly with you. I think we'll get one more AM4 chip but not a 3D cache one.
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Anyone going to wait for Zen4 Vcache '7800X3D' / '7900X3D' CPUs?
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We might see one but I tend to agree mostly with you. I think we'll get one more AM4 chip but not a 3D cache one.
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Actually it is a gaming and productivity chip. If it can clock all core in mid 4.5 to 4.6GHz it would be a gaming and productivity beats that would spank Alder Lake as it has 12 real cores.
The 5600X is a budget chip for gaming. Adding 3D VCACHE will make it more expensive and buyers will just opt for 5800X.
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I know, I run a standard one. But you are looking at it too literally and not from the point of view of AMD. Fact is, there are far less customers for a 5900x than a 5600x. And you can't argue with numbers, the market for a 5900x is much narrower.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that I would love them to do that and I'd get one. I just don't think they will. More chance of a 5600x 3D, merely in my opinion of course.
I'd imagine a 13400F bclk overclocked to around 5.5ghz with some cheap DDR4 on the B660 mortar max will be the go to option for those looking at top tier performance on a budget especially so if they enjoy overclocking.
Suppose we will see. I think generally, people would be better off with a DDR5 system at higher frequencies, assuming there is no limit on memory controller speed.
I'm doubtful about BCLKING on the 12th /13th gen, because the Mortar Max is a premium B660 board, that will cost between £150-£200. If it cost around £100 I think it would be a much better deal. There also seems to be some issues with performance when overclocking CPUs like the i7 12700.
Might as well get a cheap unlocked Z690 board, they are between £140-£150, if going with DDR4 and you want to overclock (CPUs like the 12600KF aren't that expensive). Intel DDR5 unlocked boards should come down in price eventually.
If people are building a new system, much better to wait for 13th gen. boards.
In general, I think AMD offers a better deal to customers when it comes to motherboards, as they don't prevent users from maxing out their CPUs (because they don't lock boards).
I'm doubtful about BCLKING on the 12th /13th gen, because the Mortar Max is a premium B660 board, that will cost between £150-£200. If it cost around £100 I think it would be a much better deal. There also seems to be some issues with performance when overclocking CPUs like the i7 12700.
Might as well get a cheap unlocked Z690 board, they are between £140-£150, if going with DDR4 and you want to overclock (CPUs like the 12600KF aren't that expensive). Intel DDR5 unlocked boards should come down in price eventually.
If people are building a new system, much better to wait for 13th gen. boards.
In general, I think AMD offers a better deal to customers when it comes to motherboards, as they don't prevent users from maxing out their CPUs (because they don't lock boards).
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High frequency DDR5 8-10,000mhz won't be available for another year or so yet and it'll be a couple of years till prices become reasonable on it so I don't think rushing into DDR5 this year is the best option else you'll probably end up having to buy it again at a later date.
I think your forgetting that when 700 series boards are out that 600 series will recieve price cuts, the B560M mortar for instance can be picked up for 100 quid and your right about seeing what 700 series has to offer as a clockgen may become a common feature even on the budget boards.
I'd expect to see prices rise of the binned stuff once RPL and zen 4 come out as demand for it is going to surge.
It's interesting to see higher minimum and average framerates for the 5800X3D for most games, compared to the 12900K, when both are using the same speed 3200mhz DDR4 RAM. Link here:
Zen 4 will double the L2 cache size to 1MB per core also, so it will be interesting to see how much that helps with performance.
In a different article, Techspot compared the 5800X3D and the 12700KF. Basically, the 5800X3D tends to come out on top in minimum framerate, in all but a few games:
www.techspot.com
So, V-cache has significant potential, but is just a bit expensive for the current generation. Maybe only worth it if you can get a cheaper one 2nd hand.
Zen 4 will double the L2 cache size to 1MB per core also, so it will be interesting to see how much that helps with performance.
In a different article, Techspot compared the 5800X3D and the 12700KF. Basically, the 5800X3D tends to come out on top in minimum framerate, in all but a few games:
Ryzen 7 5800X3D vs. Core i7-12700KF: Best CPU For Gamers
Here's yet another look at the Ryzen 7 5800X3D with a big 40 game benchmark, but this time we've prepared a shootout against the more affordable and...
www.techspot.com
So, V-cache has significant potential, but is just a bit expensive for the current generation. Maybe only worth it if you can get a cheaper one 2nd hand.
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You're right about CPU cache being expensive. But to gamers at least, I think AMD has shown that extra L3 Cache trumps more cores (beyond 8 cores). If they do release a 12/16 core V-cache variant I've no idea if most will be able to afford it, but I would imagine the '7800X3D' will be priced similarly to the Zen 3 equivalent.
In any case, the 2nd gen of V-cache CPUs won't be available until 2023, probably the 1st half. We know this, because this is when Genoa-X (Zen 4 servers + v-cache. Genoa CPUs launching this year) is scheduled for:
In any case, the 2nd gen of V-cache CPUs won't be available until 2023, probably the 1st half. We know this, because this is when Genoa-X (Zen 4 servers + v-cache. Genoa CPUs launching this year) is scheduled for:
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Actually, I think I'm leaning more towards Zen 4 V-cache CPUs releasing at the end of 2022, based on this quote from AMD's Senior Vice President, Saeid Moshkelani:
"Ryzen 7 5800X3D is the best gaming processor in the market bar none. We are proud of what V-Cache technology is doing for us and we are gonna feature this in Ryzen 7000 series later this year and in the future generation."
From a somewhat dubious source:
wccftech.com
Also, the updated roadmap suggests that V-cache Zen 4 CPUs are ready for production:
"Ryzen 7 5800X3D is the best gaming processor in the market bar none. We are proud of what V-Cache technology is doing for us and we are gonna feature this in Ryzen 7000 series later this year and in the future generation."
From a somewhat dubious source:
AMD Ryzen 7000 'Raphael-X' CPUs To Be Released In Late 2022, Zen 4 With 3D V-Cache To Tackle Intel's Raptor Lake
AMD confirmed that it will launch its Ryzen 7000 'Raphael-X' CPUs based on the Zen 4 architecture with 3D V-Cache, later this year.
wccftech.com
Also, the updated roadmap suggests that V-cache Zen 4 CPUs are ready for production:
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It's interesting to see higher minimum and average framerates for the 5800X3D for most games, compared to the 12900K, when both are using the same speed 3200mhz DDR4 RAM. Link here:
Zen 4 will double the L2 cache size to 1MB per core also, so it will be interesting to see how much that helps with performance.
In a different article, Techspot compared the 5800X3D and the 12700KF. Basically, the 5800X3D tends to come out on top in minimum framerate, in all but a few games:
Ryzen 7 5800X3D vs. Core i7-12700KF: Best CPU For Gamers
Here's yet another look at the Ryzen 7 5800X3D with a big 40 game benchmark, but this time we've prepared a shootout against the more affordable and...
So, V-cache has significant potential, but is just a bit expensive for the current generation. Maybe only worth it if you can get a cheaper one 2nd hand.
True though with 12700K and 12700KF< if you shut off the e-cores you can clock ring much higher, they most likely are on par in gaming minimum framerate while 12700K/KF is better in almost everything else even as an equal 8 core 16 thread CPU. Th e-cores hurt gaming as ring clock is dragged down neverminded if a game thread gets caught on one that drags it down as well. I do not think these reviewers shut down the e-cores at BIOS level to compare.
If buying new, the 12700K with a DDR4 Z690 motherboard is a better value as it is $100 or more less expensive and you can shut down the e-cores clock 8 P cores to 4.9/5GH and clock ring to 4.7/4.8GHz and get it to trade blows with 5800X3D in gaming while being better in everything else.
The 5800X3D is a great gaming upgrade to do if you already have an existing AM4 motherboard. Though its clock speed is low much lower making it worse in other things. If only it was unlocked and could be clocked high without high temps or damage, it could demolish everything else in gaming while being great in other things as well. But because its clock speed is crippled, the extra cache makes it a gaming powerhouse trading blows with well tuned unlocked 12700K while being worse and less well rounded in other workloads even worse in other workloads than 12700K with e-cores off.
Well yeah, thats why I think the 7800X3D will be a beast compared to the 5800X3D. It will defintely have 8-10% IPC improvement, higher clock rates and won't be hampered by lower DDR4 RAM frequencies.
As far as I can tell, Zen 4's DDR5 memory controller will be superior to Golden Cove's. AMD recently mentioned that 1:1 memory controller/infinity fabric speeds are possible. I'd guess they meant for DDR5 @5200mhz.
I'd guess that the memory controller speeds will have to improve a lot with Zen 5 and Meteor Lake.
As far as I can tell, Zen 4's DDR5 memory controller will be superior to Golden Cove's. AMD recently mentioned that 1:1 memory controller/infinity fabric speeds are possible. I'd guess they meant for DDR5 @5200mhz.
I'd guess that the memory controller speeds will have to improve a lot with Zen 5 and Meteor Lake.
System ram speed/timings matter less for Vcache CPUs since the whole point of Vcache is so the CPU doesn't have to dip into slower system ram.
It will matter in game that doesn't benefits extra cache, ddr5 was Intel advantage, with Zen 4 no more, AMD will have both extra cache and ddr5 so games can utilize both, + also higher clocks is expecteted, so games can benefits of that too.
Depends how high they can get the clocks though. For 3D cache to be less gimmicky they need to match the clock speed of the vanilla SKUs else it's still a niche product.
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Even with exact same set DDR4 3600 RAM per test I did at 4.7GH single thread in Cinebench and CPU-Z, Golden Cove was 16-17% faster IPC than Zen 3.
Ryzen 5900X at 4.7GHz locked clock:
Cinebench single thread: 1548
CPU-Z single thread: 642
Intel Core i7 12700K locked at 4.7GHz
Cinebench Single thread: 1855
CPU-Z Single thread: 767
Will be interesting to see how Zen 4 IPC does.
Ryzen 5900X at 4.7GHz locked clock:
Cinebench single thread: 1548
CPU-Z single thread: 642
Intel Core i7 12700K locked at 4.7GHz
Cinebench Single thread: 1855
CPU-Z Single thread: 767
Will be interesting to see how Zen 4 IPC does.