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Anyone going to wait for Zen4 Vcache '7800X3D' / '7900X3D' CPUs?
- Thread starter g67575
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Zen 4 is +8% over zen 3 according to AMD which does seem a little disappointing for a new arc on a new node and almost 2 years since Zen 3.
Zen 3 managed 19% over Zen 2 while using the same node so it does seem like for what ever reason AMD has struggled with Zen 4.
Well, it looks like AMD is more focused on making the transition to TSMC's 5nm for Zen 4, which will help them to catch up with Intel's 5ghz+ clock speeds on 10nm. It looks like AMD's design will handle 5ghz+ clock speeds, with significantly lower power consumption than with Intel's 10nm tech.
It could be that AMD hit a wall with 5nm EUV technology, limiting their design to a modest improvement in processing power. Zen 5 is going to use TSMC's 4nm technology, which I think allows for additional EUV layers and even greater transistor density. Beyond 4nm EUV, it will be very difficult to shrink down further in scale, due to the effects of quantum tunnelling. Companies like Samsung are looking into the use of 'exotic materials' for transistors, to help solve this problem.
Looking ahead to Meteor Lake in 2023, Intel could end up having the edge in terms of transistor density with their new EUV process, at least until the 2nd half of 2024.
It could be that AMD hit a wall with 5nm EUV technology, limiting their design to a modest improvement in processing power. Zen 5 is going to use TSMC's 4nm technology, which I think allows for additional EUV layers and even greater transistor density. Beyond 4nm EUV, it will be very difficult to shrink down further in scale, due to the effects of quantum tunnelling. Companies like Samsung are looking into the use of 'exotic materials' for transistors, to help solve this problem.
Looking ahead to Meteor Lake in 2023, Intel could end up having the edge in terms of transistor density with their new EUV process, at least until the 2nd half of 2024.
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You know the gaming performance already ?
probably not that hard when your running around half the cores
Well, per core Intel's P-cores use quite a bit more power. They couldn't increase the amount of Golden Cove cores over 8, because of the already very high power requirements.
360w at stock in Prime95 / AVX instructions, for the 12900KS:
Even higher if the cores are all forced to 5.2ghz.
In contrast, Zen 4 is limited to 230w on 16 full cores.
It's true that the performance should generally still be quite good though, with a PL1/PL2 limit set for the 12900K/KS. Maybe not for AVX instructions though.
360w at stock in Prime95 / AVX instructions, for the 12900KS:
Even higher if the cores are all forced to 5.2ghz.
In contrast, Zen 4 is limited to 230w on 16 full cores.
It's true that the performance should generally still be quite good though, with a PL1/PL2 limit set for the 12900K/KS. Maybe not for AVX instructions though.
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I am just going to go for the 7700x or 5800x gaming 1440p and 4k will pair it with either a 7700xt or 7800xt with 16 or 32gb ddr5 and either pci4 7000mb speed nvme or a a pci5 13,000mb speed nvme. I think I will be looking at about 900-1000watt psu
That myth will never die, will it? No amount of facts can bury it. How can it possibly be that 16p cores at 240w power limit will draw more power than 8p+8e cores at 240w power limit? I mean for christs sake, people keep repeating it and its' so fundamentally absurd I don't even know how can someone possibly say such a thing. Let me repeat once more, in the hopes of it sticking once. 1 GC core absolutely annihilates 1 zen 3 core in every single workload at both performance and efficiency. The difference is so vast that zen 4 won't be able to close the gap, I don't even have to wait for the reviews. Zen 5 MIGHT, but im not sure about that either.
You don't believe me? Go ask someone with a 5800x to run a cbr23 at a power limit of your choosing (they will dodge, but you now know why). I bet you a paycheck, with no tuning, 8p cores can match the score of 8 zen 3 cores at half the wattage.
They are way way way more efficient, cause they are much bigger cores in terms of die size. 8 Zen 3 cores need more than 150 watts to match 8gc cores at 65w. That's more than freaking double the efficiency. 16 p cores would do the same to 16 zen 3 cores - obviously.
You are seeing high power draw for alderlake cause they are clocked to the moon.
@Bencher - I think you've really gone off on one there. I'm just talking about what you can see in the Prime95 test in that chart.
12900KS is using 360 watts at stock settings.
I didn't mention Zen 3 there, but I did mention Zen 4, which is apparently limited to 230 watts (PTT). 230w is still high, but it can still be cooled with a good air cooler.
Not sure what there is to debate really. When Intel decides to bump the reduce performance cores count from 10 to 8 (10900K to 12900K), what more is there to say?
I'll agree that the power consumption is certainly lower for the lower clocked 12700K, under heavy stress:
12900KS is using 360 watts at stock settings.
I didn't mention Zen 3 there, but I did mention Zen 4, which is apparently limited to 230 watts (PTT). 230w is still high, but it can still be cooled with a good air cooler.
Not sure what there is to debate really. When Intel decides to bump the reduce performance cores count from 10 to 8 (10900K to 12900K), what more is there to say?
I'll agree that the power consumption is certainly lower for the lower clocked 12700K, under heavy stress:
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Of course it's drawing a gazilion of watts, since it's clocked at a gazilion mhz. That's not how you compare efficiency. Comparing anything with anything else has to be done normalized for something.How much would zen 3 draw clocked at the 12900ks clockspeeds? For sure - more than the what the 12900ks draws.@Bencher - I think you've really gone off on one there. I'm just talking about what you can see in the Prime95 test in that chart.
12900KS is using 360 watts at stock settings.
I didn't mention Zen 3 there, but I did mention Zen 4, which is apparently limited to 230 watts (PTT). 230w is still high, but it can still be cooled with a good air cooler.
Not sure what there is to debate really. When Intel decides to bump the reduce performance cores count from 10 to 8 (10900K to 12900K), what more is there to say?
I'll agree that the power consumption is certainly lower for the lower clocked 12700K, under heavy stress:
Intel Core i7-12700K Review - Almost as Fast as the i9-12900K
With the Core i7-12700K, Intel has released a formidable competitor to AMD's Ryzen 5800X and even 5900X. Thanks to eight powerful Golden Cove cores, the processor handles all workloads very well, including gaming. Compared to the i9-12900K, it runs almost as fast, but much cooler, with better...www.techpowerup.com
In order to compare efficiency, you normalize for either power consumption or performance. And when you do that, you'll realize that 1 P core absolutely annihilates 1 zen 3 core. It's not even close. Again, ask anyone with zen 3 to test it, power limit it to whatever wattage you want and let's compare it to my 8 GC cores. It will literally be a massacre. There is no way in hell that zen 4 closes the gap in efficiency.
Intel is stuck at 8P cores cause e cores perform better in MT scenarios for the same die space. Power consumption and heat has nothing to do with it. 16p cores will absolutely beat the crap out of the current 8+8 configuration in both performance and efficiency. But that would be an insanely expensive chip to produce.
Ill make you a bet, i've already uploaded a run at 65w with 8gc cores scoring 16200 in cbr23. There is no way in hell that 8 zen 4 cores can match that score at 65w. Again, ask anyone with zen 3 to test it, youll realize that the difference in efficiency is HUGE. AMD needs at least 2 more generations to close the efficiency gap that the P cores have over them.
And here we go again......
GC cores are wiping the floor with the zen 3 cores in efficiency. I dare you to test it, ill turn off my ecores and you use 8 zen 3 cores, so 8 to 8 at the wattage of your choosing. Let's see that zen 3 efficiency. I double dare you
I don't get whats going on in this forum, people keep making claims but when asked to back them up they just disappear. If this isn't amd paid users then i don't know what it is, it's absurd
And here we go again......
GC cores are wiping the floor with the zen 3 cores in efficiency. I dare you to test it, ill turn off my ecores and you use 8 zen 3 cores, so 8 to 8 at the wattage of your choosing. Let's see that zen 3 efficiency. I double dare you
I don't get whats going on in this forum, people keep making claims but when asked to back them up they just disappear. If this isn't amd paid users then i don't know what it is, it's absurd
I couldnt care less I just picked it up in one of the reviews and waited for you to bite
, Im fine with 5900x dont tend to upgrade anytime soon while still getting 100fps+ on most of the stuff I play, with PBO2 it uses at max 139watts on the most demanding multi core workloads ,temp 63cThat's true in that review.
But we can see that there's really a hard limit on what's possible on air coolers with CPUs like the 12900K /KS (assuming no manual board limits set), in this review:
Can DeepCool AK620 3 Fans Cool the Intel Core i9 12900K ? (with & without undervolt and power limit)
Can DeepCool AK620 with 3 Fans Cool the Intel Core i9 12900K ? (with & without undervolting and reduced power limits).Core components:MSI MPG Z690 Edge Wifi ...
youtu.be
It's the same relatively high end air cooler that I just purchased (Deepcool AK620), and it's hitting 100 Celsius /thermal throttle temp in benchmarks. Can't really see this being much different for the 13900K.
Presumably cooling 8/12/16 Zen 4 cores shouldn't be a problem for coolers like this one and similarly high end models.
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That's 87w man. Still losing horribly to 8gc cores, but yeah...5800X locked at 65w
Thanks for testing though, proves my point. GC cores are leading by a lot in efficiency. You got 160 points per watt, GC cores get 250 (16200 / 65w)
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It's easier to cool alderlake at same wattages though. Better heat dissipation. u12a keeps my 12900k at 76c PEAK in CBR23 drawing 220watts roundaboutThat's true in that review.
But we can see that there's really a hard limit on what's possible on air coolers with CPUs like the 12900K /KS (assuming no manual board limits set), in this review:
Can DeepCool AK620 3 Fans Cool the Intel Core i9 12900K ? (with & without undervolt and power limit)
Can DeepCool AK620 with 3 Fans Cool the Intel Core i9 12900K ? (with & without undervolting and reduced power limits).Core components:MSI MPG Z690 Edge Wifi ...
It's the same relatively high end air cooler that I just purchased (Deepcool AK620), and it's hitting 100 Celsius /thermal throttle temp in benchmarks. Can't really see this being much different for the 13900K.
Presumably cooling 8/12/16 Zen 4 cores shouldn't be a problem for coolers like this one and similarly high end models.
I mean, I'm not sure that holds much water, don't most people just want to install the thing and run it without putting in BIOS/power limits?
I suppose that's generally possible with the 12700K, tbf.
I've no idea, I think most people get into the bios to enable xmp right? Well in most motherboards before you can even get into the bios to enable XMP it asks you what cooler you have and it sets the plimits accordingly. I know asrock / msi / asus do that, they give you an option between Intel stock cooler that sets plimits to 65w, high end air cooler that sets the limit to 150 and watercooler that removes all limits. Of course after that it takes like 1 click to set your own limit if you wish to, but even if you don't, you still have these 3 options.