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Apple M1 CPU

The argument for ARM has always been "well they are much more efficient than large core CPU's" they are, but are they when you make large core version of them?

Well yeah, it looks that way.

I don't get why people are struggling with this so much. The most valuable tech company on the planet has sunk billions, over more than a decade, into making great chips. It's not magic and there's no trick here, Apple have executed really well and has a very power-efficient, performant design at the end of it. AMD are currently executing well too, intel not so much.
 
Nothing against these in house custom ARM chips, it enables people to break their dependence on Intel / AMD and its not just Apples who are doing this.

And that's great, its a good argument to make for them, but the Efficiency / performance argument is a bit of a none starter to me, especially at the rate AMD are advancing, Apples new Chip is fast, going from what we have seen so far, its faster than Intel's current line-up, its not quite as fast as AMD's and they are making 8 core 16 Thread Zen 3 APU's in the 15 Watt segment now.

I suspect Zen 4 will demolish these M1 CPU's.

The argument for ARM has always been "well they are much more efficient than large core CPU's" they are, but are they when you make large core version of them?

All this talk of ARM, but when is RISC-V going to get recognition? Thats really where the future should be headed towards!

Also to bring it back on topic on my part, M1 was roughly in between the 4700U and the 4800U in terms of performance, both of which are zen2 based on 7nm.
If you use AMD's latest 5000 series mobile processors (the lower wattage ones) they are clearly ahead, and once you get to Zen4 which will be 5nm (the same process that apple is already on) they will be far ahead. Saying that though, of course Apple is also looking to improve and get better gains as well.

Regarding your last point, ARM is more efficient that x86, but I dont think their bigger chips will scale linearly. Say when you go from 8 to 16 cores, the performance wont just automatically double, it'll most likely be a fair bit less as ARM isnt designed for high TDP
 
If the M1X really is going to be 12 cpu cores (8 high performance, 4 efficient) and the TDP at 35-45 watts, I would absolutely love to see how it performs up against the best AMD has to offer. Intel is well out the picture, but if the M1x can perform similar to the top AMD chips then that is incredibly impressive.
 
Regarding your last point, ARM is more efficient that x86, but I dont think their bigger chips will scale linearly. Say when you go from 8 to 16 cores, the performance wont just automatically double, it'll most likely be a fair bit less as ARM isnt designed for high TDP

No CPU ever scales linearly with cores. It's called Ahmdal's law in computing, your scaling is always limited by the portion of your workload that can't be parallelised (there always is some), and this is not architecture dependant (i.e. a task that doesn't scale in x86 is not going to scale in ARM and vice versa).

ARM and x86 scale almost identically with cores (as well or as poorly, depending on the task). Here's Anandtech for you reviewing the 250w Ampere Altra 80-core versus the Xeon and 64-core Threadripper. Multi-core scaling is simply as good as x86:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/16315/the-ampere-altra-review

World's most powerful supercomputer has ~150,000 x 48-core ARM CPUs. Each CPU has a TDP of 300w.

it'll most likely be a fair bit less as ARM isnt designed for high TDP

An architecture isn't designed (or not designed) for low or high TDP. It's purely a microarchitecture and chip design thing, you can build high or low TDP, ARM or x86 chips.
 
No CPU ever scales linearly with cores. It's called Ahmdal's law in computing, your scaling is always limited by the portion of your workload that can't be parallelised (there always is some), and this is not architecture dependant (i.e. a task that doesn't scale in x86 is not going to scale in ARM and vice versa).

ARM and x86 scale almost identically with cores (as well or as poorly, depending on the task). Here's Anandtech for you reviewing the 250w Ampere Altra 80-core versus the Xeon and 64-core Threadripper. Multi-core scaling is simply as good as x86:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/16315/the-ampere-altra-review

World's most powerful supercomputer has ~150,000 x 48-core ARM CPUs. Each CPU has a TDP of 300w.



An architecture isn't designed (or not designed) for low or high TDP. It's purely a microarchitecture and chip design thing, you can build high or low TDP, ARM or x86 chips.

Fair enough, but I still believe that at higher TDP x86 will scale better than ARM which was made predominantly for lower power use (at least at the consumer level).
For example, if you directly compare the Ryzen 5600x vs 5900x (6 cores vs 12 cores) on Cinebench R23, the multicore score is almost exactly double on the 5900x, thats scaled pretty much linear if you ask me: https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-amd_ryzen_5_5600x-1750-vs-amd_ryzen_9_5900x-1748

Its apples and oranges when you throw in server level components comparing with low powered consumer chips though as I dont think it works out quite the same, but if Apple somehow do get it scale linearly, then fair enough ill take back what I said. i.e I expect to see a 16 core M1 variant (assuming 8 high performance, 8 efficiency) to perform literally twice as good as the standard M1

We'll find out in due course anyway I suppose
 
All this talk of ARM, but when is RISC-V going to get recognition? Thats really where the future should be headed towards!

Also to bring it back on topic on my part, M1 was roughly in between the 4700U and the 4800U in terms of performance, both of which are zen2 based on 7nm.
If you use AMD's latest 5000 series mobile processors (the lower wattage ones) they are clearly ahead, and once you get to Zen4 which will be 5nm (the same process that apple is already on) they will be far ahead. Saying that though, of course Apple is also looking to improve and get better gains as well.

Regarding your last point, ARM is more efficient that x86, but I dont think their bigger chips will scale linearly. Say when you go from 8 to 16 cores, the performance wont just automatically double, it'll most likely be a fair bit less as ARM isnt designed for high TDP

I did look at Anand's review of the M1 and as is typical with Anand these days its impossible to properly compare it to anything but its self, maybe deliberately...

The only comparison they had was with Cinebench R23.

M1 (Rosseta 2 mode) whatever the #### that is:
7,833

M1 (Native Mode) Whatever that is:
5,257

Ryzen 4800U, a Zen 2 CPU (15 Watts)
9,286

So even AMD's older Zen 2 is clearly faster

What we don't know is power consumption, because Anand saw fit to compare the M1 only to its self, its up to 31 Watts, absolutely no idea what the power consumption of the 4800U is, you would think 15 Watts but we can't be sure of that, and this for mobile is very important, which is why Anand only compared the M1 to its self. :rolleyes:
 
Fair enough, but I still believe that at higher TDP x86 will scale better than ARM which was made predominantly for lower power use (at least at the consumer level).
For example, if you directly compare the Ryzen 5600x vs 5900x (6 cores vs 12 cores) on Cinebench R23, the multicore score is almost exactly double on the 5900x, thats scaled pretty much linear if you ask me: https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-amd_ryzen_5_5600x-1750-vs-amd_ryzen_9_5900x-1748

That's because Cinebench R23 is literally designed to scale as close to linearly as possible. There are embarrassingly parallel tasks that do (rendering, text compression, etc). That same Cinebench R23 task will also scale linearly with non-x86 architectures. You can compare those un SPEC subbenchmarks in the Anandtech review.

Its apples and oranges when you throw in server level components comparing with low powered consumer chips though as I dont think it works out quite the same,

Give or take a few instructions, those server-grade CPUs use exactly the same ISA as every other ARM chip, and that's also the same for x86 (laptop/desktop/server use the same ISA). What they show is that the claims that ARM architecture can't scale (or can't compete on performance) isn't true. If the focus becomes scaling or performance, they can compete.

The same is also true of x86 and efficiency, they can compete on efficiency. There's not much in the x86 ISA that prohibits that.

but if Apple somehow do get it scale linearly, then fair enough ill take back what I said. i.e I expect to see a 16 core M1 variant (assuming 8 high performance, 8 efficiency) to perform literally twice as good as the standard M1

We'll find out in due course anyway I suppose

It will be close enough to that in tasks where it's supposed to be, you can see Cinebench R23 on M1, multi-threaded score is 5x the single threaded one, which is what you'd expect (each small core is about 20% of the performance of big core). Adding more in an embarrassingly parallel task will just scale.

Multicore scaling (up to about 200 cores) was solved more than a decade ago and all architectures use roughly the same principles and achieve similar results.

I did look at Anand's review of the M1 and as is typical with Anand these days its impossible to properly compare it to anything but its self, maybe deliberately...

The only comparison they had was with Cinebench R23.

M1 (Rosseta 2 mode) whatever the #### that is:
7,833

M1 (Native Mode) Whatever that is:
5,257

Ryzen 4800U, a Zen 2 CPU (15 Watts)
9,286

So even AMD's older Zen 2 is clearly faster

What we don't know is power consumption, because Anand saw fit to compare the M1 only to its self, its up to 31 Watts, absolutely no idea what the power consumption of the 4800U is, you would think 15 Watts but we can't be sure of that, and this for mobile is very important, which is why Anand only compared the M1 to its self. :rolleyes:

You shouldn't compare a 4+4 core to an 8-core CPU. The 4 efficiency cores are not there for performance (performance is ~20% of big cores), they're there for handling background tasks. Intel is also moving to Big.Little in the future, so we'll see this sort of thing more often. The reason Intel and AMD don't use it already because Windows doesn't take advantage of heterogenous CPUs so little point for Intel and AMD to implement it but Windows will support it soon.

Here you can see comparison of 4-core M1 versus 8-core M1, the 4 small cores only add as 20%.

119365.png

Also M1's multithreaded are ~5x of the single threaded one, very close to what you'd expect from 4 fast cores and 4 cores that are 20% as fast. Each core itself is competitive with Zen 3 cores.

119145.png


119372.png
 
I did look at Anand's review of the M1 and as is typical with Anand these days its impossible to properly compare it to anything but its self, maybe deliberately...

The only comparison they had was with Cinebench R23.

M1 (Rosseta 2 mode) whatever the #### that is:
7,833

M1 (Native Mode) Whatever that is:
5,257

Ryzen 4800U, a Zen 2 CPU (15 Watts)
9,286

So even AMD's older Zen 2 is clearly faster

What we don't know is power consumption, because Anand saw fit to compare the M1 only to its self, its up to 31 Watts, absolutely no idea what the power consumption of the 4800U is, you would think 15 Watts but we can't be sure of that, and this for mobile is very important, which is why Anand only compared the M1 to its self. :rolleyes:

Yeah im not really a fan of anandtech in all honesty, but its not like they make everything up.

Just based on Cinebench R23 (which for me and many others, is the best cross-platform benchmarking tool) Its clear which has more performance out of the M1 and 4800U. Of course this doesnt take wattage into account, but I dont suspect the difference is huge but I would expect the M1 to for sure be working at lower TDP
 
That's because Cinebench R23 is literally designed to scale as close to linearly as possible. There are embarrassingly parallel tasks that do (rendering, text compression, etc). That same Cinebench R23 task will also scale linearly with non-x86 architectures. You can compare those un SPEC subbenchmarks in the Anandtech review.



Give or take a few instructions, those server-grade CPUs use exactly the same ISA as every other ARM chip, and that's also the same for x86 (laptop/desktop/server use the same ISA). What they show is that the claims that ARM architecture can't scale (or can't compete on performance) isn't true. If the focus becomes scaling or performance, they can compete.

The same is also true of x86 and efficiency, they can compete on efficiency. There's not much in the x86 ISA that prohibits that.



It will be close enough to that in tasks where it's supposed to be, you can see Cinebench R23 on M1, multi-threaded score is 5x the single threaded one, which is what you'd expect (each small core is about 20% of the performance of big core). Adding more in an embarrassingly parallel task will just scale.

Multicore scaling (up to about 200 cores) was solved more than a decade ago and all architectures use roughly the same principles and achieve similar results.



You shouldn't compare a 4+4 core to an 8-core CPU. The 4 efficiency cores are not there for performance (performance is ~20% of big cores), they're there for handling background tasks. Intel is also moving to Big.Little in the future, so we'll see this sort of thing more often. The reason Intel and AMD don't use it already because Windows doesn't take advantage of heterogenous CPUs so little point for Intel and AMD to implement it but Windows will support it soon.

Here you can see comparison of 4-core M1 versus 8-core M1, the 4 small cores only add as 20%.

119365.png

Also M1's multithreaded are ~5x of the single threaded one, very close to what you'd expect from 4 fast cores and 4 cores that are 20% as fast. Each core itself is competitive with Zen 3 cores.

119145.png


119372.png

You shouldn't compare a 4+4 core to an 8-core CPU

Why not? That's like saying you shouldn't compare the 1165G7 to the 4800U, or the upcoming 5800U, because its not fair the 1165G7 is an 8 thread CPU while the latter 16 thread?

Depends on the power consumption, at 28 Watts the 1165G7 is slower than the 15 Watt 4800U, is it AMD's fault that Intel can't get 8 fast cores into a 15 Watt power envelope?
 
Why not? That's like saying you shouldn't compare the 1165G7 to the 4800U, or the upcoming 5800U, because its not fair the 1165G7 is an 8 thread CPU while the latter 16 thread?

They're not the same class of products. It's like comparing a Ryzen 3 with a Core i7. M1 is the lowest-end Apple CPU which goes into entry-level products, some of which are passively cooled. AMD 4800U is one of the best chips (if not the best) in its class, but it's in a higher end class of chips than M1.

Apple will release higher end chips in the coming months.

Depends on the power consumption, at 28 Watts the 1165G7 is slower than the 15 Watt 4800U, is it AMD's fault that Intel can't get 8 fast cores into a 15 Watt power envelope?

You shouldn't be using TDP in this context either, while it's true that 4800U is more power efficient than 1165G7, those numbers are rather meaningless. Any implementation of those chips will have its own thermal envelopes with various power efficiency figures, either of those two chips are capable of drawing as little as single-digit watts or as high as 40w or more.
 
They're not the same class of products. It's like comparing a Ryzen 3 with a Core i7. M1 is the lowest-end Apple CPU which goes into entry-level products, some of which are passively cooled. AMD 4800U is one of the best chips (if not the best) in its class, but it's in a higher end class of chips than M1.

Apple will release higher end chips in the coming months.



You shouldn't be using TDP in this context either, while it's true that 4800U is more power efficient than 1165G7, those numbers are rather meaningless. Any implementation of those chips will have its own thermal envelopes with various power efficiency figures, either of those two chips are capable of drawing as little as single-digit watts or as high as 40w or more.

These CPU's don't exist in a vacuum, even Apple themselves are comparing these CPU's to Intel, its Apple doing it and you can't say do it when its convenient and not when it isn't. they are all selling the same type of products.

Boost state power envelopes; the same can be true for all of them, Which is why we need to know the power consumption of all these CPU's to gauge their efficiency comparatively. What i will say is Cinebench R23 MT runs for 10 minutes, none of these CPU's are in a 40 Watt boost state for that long, its seconds. Less than a minute and no where near 40 Watts, not for U series CPU's.

The single threaded performance of the M1 is impressive, its a near dead match for Intel's Rocket Lake at 4.7Ghz and 26% faster than Zen 2 at 4.2Ghz.

In MT while still very good, better than the 1165G7, that's impressive, but as i said they are not just competing with Intel.

Ryzen 4800U ~4.2Ghz 15 Watt

Ryzen 5800U ~4.4Ghz 15 Watt (+20% IPC)

In Single threaded that ^^^ is what they are actually up against, i suspect that's a close match and even faster in MT.
 
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M1-powered notebooks have an estimated battery life of up to 15 hours, while AMD's Ryzen 5 4500U 15-watt can only achieve miserable 6.25 - 11 hours.
 
M1-powered notebooks have an estimated battery life of up to 15 hours, while AMD's Ryzen 5 4500U 15-watt can only achieve miserable 6.25 - 11 hours.

Depends on the Battery, the only way you can accurately measure battery life is if you use identical systems where the only difference is the chip.
 
Depends on the Battery, the only way you can accurately measure battery life is if you use identical systems where the only difference is the chip.

This is not true.
Apple MacBookAir 13-inch 1.29 kg - 15 hours
Lenovo IdeaPad 5 14ARE 14-inch 1.40 kg - 10 hours

The difference is in the screen size but going from 13 up to 14 inch screen won't lose 33% of the battery performance.
 
This is not true.
Apple MacBookAir 13-inch 1.29 kg - 15 hours
Lenovo IdeaPad 5 14ARE 14-inch 1.40 kg - 10 hours

The difference is in the screen size but going from 13 up to 14 inch screen won't lose 33% of the battery performance.

But what capacity are the batteries in each of those?

If they aren't the same you can't compare them
 
This is not true.
Apple MacBookAir 13-inch 1.29 kg - 15 hours
Lenovo IdeaPad 5 14ARE 14-inch 1.40 kg - 10 hours

The difference is in the screen size but going from 13 up to 14 inch screen won't lose 33% of the battery performance.


But what capacity are the batteries in each of those?

If they aren't the same you can't compare them

That ^^^^
 
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