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ARM to split off to china?

Discussion in 'CPUs' started by Cyber-Mav, Jul 30, 2020.

  1. humbug

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 17, 2012

    Posts: 34,062

    Right up until very recently our government was still trying to get into bed with Huawei despite the US and AU screaming at us DON'T.

    US and UK intelligence services have been warning governments about China using its western embedded infrastructure (3G, 4G) to steal Intellectual Property and state secretes for a decade and it was ignored, they pushed ahead with taking China's money and inviting them in to take over more and more of our critical infrastructure, even our nuclear power plants.

    This is beyond incompetence, this is delusion that somehow its not a problem, that it will be ok.... because its convenient and easy, its the weakness of not being able to acknowledge the problem and put a stop to it, its the same weakness that makes all politicians these days parrot whatever lunacy is trending on Twitter because they can't handle being criticized by Mainstream Media Twitter addicts like Emily Maitlis.

    Nothing RE: The China problem was done until the bad Orange Man now in the White House picked a fight with them, and rightly so that he has, it needs to be done.

    Don't you think we should be pulling back from China?
     
  2. LoadsaMoney

    Caporegime

    Joined: Jul 8, 2003

    Posts: 28,875

    Location: In a house

    del
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
  3. Doobedoo

    Mobster

    Joined: Jul 24, 2016

    Posts: 2,722

    Location: South West

    Exactly. Its what us and our mates have done throughout modern history to get where we are. Now it’s China’s turn. Maybe.

    If you keep poking at the Chinese, Russian, Iranian’s and bullying all the other little kids, is it much of a surprise when they eventually say enough is enough.
     
  4. pc-guy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: May 29, 2005

    Posts: 1,385

    As a country we shouldn’t be so reliant on other country for expertise or resources. However it is easier said than done in a connected global market. We should be protecting our assets for sure, have industrial strategy and invest in innovation to compete as opposed to the mantra of “outsourcing”. With regards to Huawei being part of 5G, I never think there was any issues of security and risks in that they will be limited to what part of network they can operate. Huawei is completely integral to our current generation of communications network. Do you see any issues with it atm? So don’t be mind washed by hysteria fanned up by Trumpism.

    with respect to nuclear power stations there are very few players in the global market. China is a leader in nuclear station design. They have lots of them. I really don’t think they need to steal our french design. The french are very close to China on these matters also so if China really wanted the design they would have asked and the french would have given them. The main issue there is if the Chinese build our rail and power station how much of that money will be actually used to employ local talent and work force. If they are bringing “expert workforce” then there are undoubtedly question about work conditions etc. Are we happy to live with that for cheaper rail and cheaper electricity and become even more reliant on China.

    US is not just looking to pull back from trade with China, under Trump he s actively seeking confrontation.

    That is warmongering.

    that’s how japan and US got involved in WW2 if you ever learn history.

    China is no doubt using trade to cement its international partnerships and building allies. It is foolhardy to think otherwise. Then again how is that different to what US is going to UK? US has used it’s sway already pushed the government to u turn on a major economic and infrastructure decision which will COST us tens of billions and no trade deal insight. US has abused its immunity status to shield a murder from justice and bullying UK to give up the fight, so far China hasn’t actively killed anyone in UK soil yet. US has incentised its international companies through unfair tax regime to pay less than in its international partners borders so that they can pay into US treasury coffers and threaten Sanctions and Tarrifs even pulling out of NATO, WTO, etc if these countries propose additional taxation. US produced so called “intelligence” to pull us into conflicts across the world and descending many region into untold chaos and suffering. Yet western media never speak ill of US. US actively lobby in all western countries and its allies in the east. China do very little of that outside maybe a few strategic states and certainly don’t use the same amount of resources that the state department expend.

    On balance both US and China are bullies on the world stage. It’s not one is more evil than the other. It just which one is more aligned to your position.

    my position on all of this is, no shouldn’t pull back from anything. UK is small but we are an important market still. So we should active negotiate and trade to the best position that suits us. Why not play these two world powers off from each other and reap the benefit. If say AT&T wants to put their stuff in our 5G and so do Huawei then let them tender and we evaluate and see who gives better value. Why not make our judgements on facts and reasons rather than political or ideological leaning. To both of these countries, we are a market, why not act as one as opposed to be a lap-dog.

    and the government and future ones should definitely start a national development fund to encourage infrastructure tech startup. Companies like ARM should have been protected not allowed to be sold off or at least still retain majority share option. So happy for foreign investment but the company is still British etc.

    the government and past ones have probably given more tax breaks to vacuum cleaner maker, film studios, offshore trust funds than the companies who is designing and developing innovative propulsion engines, battery tech, micro-electronics or even bio-medicines. It just goes to show there is an utter lack of direction in the central government. Which I totally agree with you, just from a different perspective.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2020
  5. humbug

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 17, 2012

    Posts: 34,062

    Trumpism? Our intelligence services? Are you serious?

    This needs explaining. Why would France just give China competitive IP because they asked for it?

    Our rail fares and household fuel costs are among the highest in the world, all of it is owned by foreign companies.

    China is already hostile on the world stage and has been for some time.

    RE my last comment Google The Thucydides Trap.

    China are not looking to make friends with us by taking over our critical infrastructure, they don't have any immature dreamy 'John Lennon's Imagine' ideals, that's very much us, they are trying to make us dependent on them, subservient, they see our globalist ideals as a weakness to be exploited.

    You're incredibly naive. Just as Neville Chamberlain thought being nice to Mr Hitler would show him the virtues of nice thinking and bring him into the community of nice people, Hitler thought Chamberlain was weak and didn't have the stomach to do anything at all if he invaded the Baltic Nations and Poland, HE WAS RIGHT, it took a bullish "War Monger" no one liked to do what was necessary to sort it all out.

    This is probably the only thing you and i can agree on.

    Horrible people with ambition exist, pandering to them doesn't convert them into nice people, they just exploit that naivety.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
  6. pc-guy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: May 29, 2005

    Posts: 1,385

    1) the current UK intelligence services said “the risk can be managed”. They DID NOT recommend against Huawei’s involvement in 5G infrastructure if their scope is limited. The perceived risks of Chinese government can potentially hijack our 5G network are unfounded but nevertheless discussed and can be a POTENTIALLY reality. The only people who are crying wolf here are past intelligence chiefs who are basically on the payroll of Trump’s state department.

    I am not saying China don’t operate hacking or espionage. They certainly do like America does and other states with facilities to do this. I am pretty sure our intelligence services do these also otherwise how on earth do they know what is going on with states like China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, and any other axis of evil the west media would have us believe.

    Intelligence goes both ways. If we know something about them then we must have done something equally dodgy to obtain that information.

    2) the french and China are incredibly close on matters of trade and nuclear technologies. It’s just a fact. Soviets helped China with the first atomic bombs and then China became friends with the west and french was helping them building their nuclear power stations. Much of Chinese designs are french derivatives. So they share technologies. French has now stopped building them in their own country but they are now selling the technologies outside their country. So if someone is willing to pay ie UK and China surely the common sense is that they will sell the design. They have done it before and they will do it again.

    3) your view of Chinese government seems extreme. Sure China is not looking to get into bed with anyone, they are clearly looking after number 1 - themselves. But which other state in the world don’t do that? You give me an example of a world power state that has gone into a trade with another country with altruistic motives? I think you are being extremely simple minded here.

    You can call me naive but I am calling uninformed and tunnel vision so we can agree to disagree.

    However as leaders of states, one can’t afford nativity or lack of knowledge so I do agree with UK is extremely naive and lacks vision and politics and governance is full of short sightness . Europe is too. Thinking that chinese companies back by state funding will play on level terms is utterly stupid. For instance, the steel dumping saga just after 2008 crash. The writing was all over the wall yet took EU 5 years to react and do anything about it. I don’t disagree that there needs to be measures to counter unfair trade practices coming out of China. But we do it also. Why does EU have all these regulations - it is designed to protect EU companies and producers and to make the market biased towards local businesses. Your favourite man Trump has also clearly stated these practices. Have you conveniently forgotten about these also. So if you want to bring these subject up, please be balanced.
     
  7. G_Wizz

    Hitman

    Joined: Mar 30, 2004

    Posts: 888

    We (as in the "West") gained our position through hard work and ingenuity over hundreds of years, we had 7 year old kids working in factories for 13 hours a day, 6 days a week. No one gave us a head start and gave us technology for free, no one closed their factories and moved them to Britain or France or Germany. China was a peasant agriciltural economy in 1970 and everything they have technology wise was either given to them or they stole, just to satisfy the short term greed of a handfull of billionaires. I know our actions in many cases have not been moral but it is the first time in history that a powerful nation or group of nations have deliberately made another nation more powerfull than themselves and over the coming years and decades we will have to face the consequences.
     
  8. pc-guy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: May 29, 2005

    Posts: 1,385

    Have you been to China recently? Their daily technology is way beyond our western standards. You will struggle out there to keep pace with the technological advances.

    China was also a major empire some 400 years ago. Gengishan’s empire stretched a long long long way man.

    Chairman Mai decimated China until Chairman Deng opened China up for global market in the late 70s and early 80s.

    America used to be land of hunter and gatherers until European explorers arrived and started exploiting land and colonising it. Australia was a penal colony in Victorian time. London was just a municipal port in Roman time. I mean seriously where do you really want to start history. Every power has a humble beginning, you don’t even need to know history to know this. Just play games like age of empire, command and conquer, Warcraft, star craft to name a few.

    atomic weapon was brainchild of nazis. Us stole it from the scientists defected to US, connected computers was British engineered. But look at it now, who owns internet really...American companies. Jet propulsion was British crown jewel in the 60s and somehow we let that technology get ripped off to America. Technological “theft” from country to country is rift. Don’t think only China does it.
     
  9. G_Wizz

    Hitman

    Joined: Mar 30, 2004

    Posts: 888

    I know all that but every single thing China has was given to it free of charge by greedy Western Billionaires, nothing like this has ever happened before, all through history the strongest have led untill someone stronger emerged, the strong never built up their own successors. We are stll giving economic aid to China, thats how idiotic our Governments are, China could buy the whole of the UK tommorrow in cash and we are giving them aid whilst they have hundreds of thousands of Muslims in re education camps.
     
  10. humbug

    Caporegime

    Joined: Mar 17, 2012

    Posts: 34,062

    The risk isn't from data breaches which GCHQ say and think can be managed, its the risks that comes from being dependent on a hostile regime like the CCP https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/business/huawei-uk-5g.html
    This seems to be a new realization among governments and security agencies, i think its finally sunk in that the CCP are never going to play nice.

    How sweet of those nice communists. This changes everything.....

    More than a million Uighur Muslims rounded up and detained in Xinjiang "re-eduction camps" for wrong think.
    China runs a Social Credit system that punishes its population for crimes against the state, everything from downloading porn and jaywalking to criticizing the CCP can leave you without access to health care and public transport to being locked up in re-eduction camps.

    China practices apatite, ethnic minorities have less access to services and even public spaces.

    I'm no fan of Trump, i think he's an idiot and a bully, he's narcissistic... i can't stand that trait in people..... but the democrats are just as bad in that regard, they are also snivelling slimly cowardly little weasels willing to sell out to anyone who offers them some power, that makes them more dangerous than Trump.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
  11. Pleiades

    Gangster

    Joined: Aug 18, 2008

    Posts: 251

    Location: Amongst barbarians

    From 18th March 2018:
    Today’s Mail on Sunday reports that China is set to give the Russian government money as part of the country's aid and loan programmes, while claiming that the UK government gives aid to China. To be clear, no UK aid goes to Russia and in fact no DFID money goes to China.

    https://dfidnews.blog.gov.uk/2018/03/18/mail-on-sunday-claims-on-aid-to-china/


    As for your laughable claim that: "every single thing China has was given to it free of charge by greedy Western Billionaires".... I just can't even... :rolleyes:
     
  12. FoxEye

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 17, 2006

    Posts: 23,623

    Location: Cornwall

    The UK (govt) cares only for money. Nothing else.

    The UK is like a desperate hooker - will do anything for money. Only it's ideological rather than through lack of choice.

    The UK wants to sell everything. To any buyer. We would probably sell the Queen for the right offer :p

    The UK has no problem selling all our critical infrastructure to foreign powers. No problem at all. It's what we do!

    I don't think any of the big sell-offs really had much scrutiny, beyond $$$.

    Outsource everything and sell everything. The UK's motto should be, "Everything must go!"

    e: The NHS will be sold off at some point. Ask just about anyone who works there what they think the mid- to long-term future is for them. US-style private healthcare is the response you normally get, from the doctors on the inside.
     
  13. Blackjack Davy

    Mobster

    Joined: Aug 16, 2009

    Posts: 3,722

    Its China thats being confrontational what with basically declaring the entire South China Seas as its private ocean... even up to a few miles of the coast in Vietnam and its increasingly belligerent tone towards Australia of late... Trump America is simply squaring up to them.

    China won't hijack 5g thats ludicrous what they will do is mine it for infomation i.e. data gathering and thats the concern of intelligence agencies.
    Gengi-who? If you're referring to Genghis Khan he was Mongol and responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands possibly millions of chinese when he invaded.

    Chairman Mao. You might want to check up on your own history first.
     
  14. FoxEye

    Capodecina

    Joined: Feb 17, 2006

    Posts: 23,623

    Location: Cornwall

    I did a history course on 4chan and I'm fairly sure it's spelled "Chairman Meow"

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Hades

    Capodecina

    Joined: Oct 19, 2002

    Posts: 24,398

    Location: Surrey

    The UK's attitude to technology has infuriated me for decades. Successive UK governments have ignored how valuable the Technology sector is. We were once one of the top countries for both hardware and software. Now we are a small bit-part player. The UK, and to a lesser degree other Western countries, just look at the short term cost or profit. Short term, short term, short term. We've thrown away so many advantages.
     
  16. pc-guy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: May 29, 2005

    Posts: 1,385

    what has South China Sea got any thing to do with Huawei and trades? You are mucking it in. China has been aggressive in that part for well over 20yrs. You ain’t got a bloody clue what you are going on about. You only read snippets about it. US under Clinton, Bush and Obama have been scaling back their naval presence and exercises for decades. US army and naval personnel’s have been reducing in numbers in the South Pacific region over the same period. That’s is not something Chinese decided to do. That’s US’s priority. China took advantage of that situation.

    US under Trump took the trade war to white point against everyone - Mexico, Canada, EU, Pacific nations, and lastly China. Only China went and gone nah, we ain’t gonna bend over and have our pants around our ankles. Fair dues. However they ain’t all squeaky clean themselves as they clearly don’t play fair.

    seriously get a grip with your facts.

    I don’t type on keyboard and my phone likes to randomly auto correct or muddle things up so excuses me Spell Bee. Are you proud of it?
     
  17. pc-guy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: May 29, 2005

    Posts: 1,385

    I agree with you on the basis that Huawei can potentially be a problematic supplier due to US banning them in western technologies. However this is not how you started the point. Nevertheless, it is a fair point. The risk is potentially too great to bear. However you got to think that if that is the case who is responsible for that. Again, it is Trump’s policy. American (government) has never pretended anything other than that Huawei is an intelligence security risk. It is BS.

    denying the fact that french and China cooperate doesn't make you right tho, no point in calling anyone communist. China is probably more capitalist than UK. People living in rural inland have living standard similar to famine hit African nations where the people living in affluent cities have living standards well above average westerners. Cost of living in Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen is well above London. So if they are true communist how does that work. People in China are obsessed with money and making money. That’s definitely true.

    what’s going on in Xingjiang is horrendous. The same bloody thing happened in Tibet as well. Back in the 50s 60s 70s and 80s no one cared. Now people starts to give them sticks. Which is damn right. But again how much do we actually know about it cos as far I know this stuff has been going on for over 10yrs and as far as I can tell western media has only been reporting it for last year or two. It strikes me hugely hypocritical. I guess better late than never but the timing of it all makes me hugely suspicious.

    American politics are broken. Politicians have no morale and can go from one extreme to another in the same sentence. They are mostly deplorable bunch. Scary thing is British politics is becoming increasing polarised as well. People generally just don’t tolerate each other anymore.

    which is all the more scary in the wider context of global conflicts.
     
  18. CAT-THE-FIFTH

    Capodecina

    Joined: Nov 9, 2009

    Posts: 19,727

    Location: Planet Earth

    Its really sad,and you should see how our aerospace sector went down the tubes too. The UK is the first and only country to develope its own indigenous space vehicle,launch a satellite on it,and cancel it...since the Yanks were cheaper(they then jacked the price up). Even one ARM co-founders is saddened by what happened:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53637463

    Even the ARM co-founder said Nvidia would be a terrible owner,so yes a consortium would be a better choice. As he mentioned ARM has to stay neutral and be easily licensable,other as he said companies will look at other alternatives.

    One thing that could happen,is if ARM becomes US owned,they could actually stop licensing all cores to Chinese firms such as Hisilicon,Mediatek and Rockchip.
     
  19. pc-guy

    Wise Guy

    Joined: May 29, 2005

    Posts: 1,385

    Do you think RISC-V will then take off if ARM is procured by nvidia?

    Also how does an open standard work with Chinese chip makers? RISC-V is still American tech.