Asbestos question

ubersonic · 13 Jun 2012 at 11:41

I have spent all day looking on the HSE website and in regs/guidance but can't find an answer to this so if anybody knows the answer and where to find the documentation of it I would greatly appreciate it.

Asbestos gaskets are still quite common in machinery and when you go to a site you may have to disturb a gasket on some equipment, but its impossible ot tell beforehand if its an asbestos gasket or not, just because its not on the buildings asbestos survey doesn't mean its not there. This gives a problem because the guidance is pretty much to assume that everything is asbestos unless you know for sure otherwise :rolleyes:

How the hell is this even a workable situation? under the letter of the regs/guidance I have been able to find if anybody has to work on pipes and sees a gasket they must assume it may contain asbestos, stop work, and advise the owner/council/whatever to have it tested by a licensed asbestos contractor. If we all did this we would be out of business in a snap and no work would ever be done anywhere. The has to be something else to this...

Help please.

MeEsH BaKkA · 13 Jun 2012 at 11:53

Basically you have to assume everything is asbestos, and get it tested. In real life, you get to know what could be asbestos and either leave it or just do the job if you think you can get away with not disturbing it too much.

For example the amount of times I have pulled an old ceramic fuse out to re wire it and there is asbestos flash padding behind them is countless but seeing as I have already removed the fuse I just go outside re-wire and then reinsert the fuse. Dangerous, technically but TBH pretty much everyone has been exposed to asbestos at some point anyway.

Edit: I assume you work for a firm, have you not had any training/asbestos awareness courses?

Angilion · 13 Jun 2012 at 12:22

I have a cynical answer. I'd like it to be untrue, but I think it's true.

If the official guidance is that you must assume that every gasket may contain asbestos and you shouldn't do any work until it has been tested by people licensed to do such testing, then you are responsible if you don't do that and are harmed as a result (regardless of how impractical it is). In short, arse-covering.

cm1179 · 13 Jun 2012 at 12:25

Angilion said:
I have a cynical answer. I'd like it to be untrue, but I think it's true.

If the official guidance is that you must assume that every gasket may contain asbestos and you shouldn't do any work until it has been tested by people licensed to do such testing, then you are responsible if you don't do that and are harmed as a result (regardless of how impractical it is). In short, arse-covering.

not cynical. logical and spot on. some may argue not reasonably practicable. tell them ********.

Lt_Red · 13 Jun 2012 at 12:32

ubersonic said:
How the hell is this even a workable situation? under the letter of the regs/guidance I have been able to find if anybody has to work on pipes and sees a gasket they must assume it may contain asbestos, stop work, and advise the owner/council/whatever to have it tested by a licensed asbestos contractor. If we all did this we would be out of business in a snap and no work would ever be done anywhere. The has to be something else to this...

I work in the industry and you are quite correct, that is exactly what you must do. There should always be a contingency within your tenders even if its not an agreed sum that covers works stoppages, testing and possible removal - covered by your client.

The regulations actually require the "person concerned with the premises" to identify any asbestos containing materials within their interests and keep this in an asbestos register. Although the sort of survey that would generate a register of this type would not be destructive and may not turn up all Asbestos containing materials, it would be likely to include some assumptions that certain gaskets are ACM's and you should be forewarned of this before you start work.

Unfortunately in the real world it does not always work like this.

The fact is that if you uncover a gasket not on the register and suspect it is asbestos you must stop work, inform your client and get it tested before proceeding. That's what the law requires you to do if you do not have the in house competence to correctly identify (or not) the material (this is NOT an asbestos awareness course btw). Under some circumstances the problem material can be removed by someone with the correct training and wouthout a licence, but this is heavily restricted to only some types of materials.

There are 3 categories of this work;

Non Licensed work on some materials restricted to one person being able to remove that material within 1 hour under the correct controlled conditions. This can be carried out by a non licensed contractor with Asbestos Clearance training.

Non Licensed notifiable work. As above but requires the HSE to be notified (takes 14 days)

Licensed work. Notifiable and must be carried out by a licensed contractor.

In any case, all testing and sampling works must be carried out by a licensed asbestos surveyor.

dave1983 · 13 Jun 2012 at 12:33

Arrange a subcontractor i.e. redhills to carry out a sample survey.

They will confirm if there is a presence of asbestos, if there is they will advise whether the area needs to be restricted untill the asbestos is removed.

Normally if it's small they can do it in a 1 days work (air monitoring) and silverdell can do removals. cerca £1k.

Lt_Red · 13 Jun 2012 at 12:40

cm1179 said:
not cynical. logical and spot on. some may argue not reasonably practicable. tell them ********.

The Control of Asbestos regulations are an "absolute" and for the most part are not qualified by "Reasonably Practicable".

Lt_Red · 13 Jun 2012 at 12:53

Angilion said:
I have a cynical answer. I'd like it to be untrue, but I think it's true.

If the official guidance is that you must assume that every gasket may contain asbestos and you shouldn't do any work until it has been tested by people licensed to do such testing, then you are responsible if you don't do that and are harmed as a result (regardless of how impractical it is). In short, arse-covering.

Technically speaking your employer is responsible. The truth is that by the time you discover you have an asbestos related illness, chances are that employer will be long gone. There is a insurance central fund that that those with ARI's can use for compensation in the event that the worst comes to the worst and the employer is no longer trading.

However if the miners get their way that'll be gone in a few years...

If you ever feel you have been exposed to dangerous levels of asbestos make bloody sure it is reported to the HSE via form F2508.

ubersonic · 13 Jun 2012 at 13:02

Damn it, this is the nanny state just taken beyond the extreme to the ludicrous

Thanks for the info guys

cm1179 said:
not cynical. logical and spot on. some may argue not reasonably practicable. tell them ********.

Not reasonably practical is an understatement, try ridiculously impossible. The choice is basically don't follow the regs and risk a lawsuit, or follow the regs and go out of business as nobody will ever hire you when word gets around that's how you work

Slade2 · 13 Jun 2012 at 13:02

At the end of the day what is important is the people in the field that have to mend the pipe that potentialy has asbestos within it. They might be doing that kind of job day in and day out and it is these people that we need to protect from needless asbestos exposure.

I work as a premise manager and I have type 2 surveys for all the buildings I manage. If I know a contractor is due on site I will meet with him and we will look at the register and have a brief documented chat and I wil complete a quick form detailing the converstation. If we suspect the area to contain asbestos I would have probably already been aware of the fact and ordered a type 3 survey or got another firm in to manage it for me. There are times when remedial jobs have to happen and you have to use better judgement I have signed off many jobs where I have given the contractor instructions to let me know if anything is found and work is to stop becuase like I said above it is the engineers at the rock face that matter.

ubersonic · 13 Jun 2012 at 13:44

Slade2 said:
At the end of the day what is important is the people in the field that have to mend the pipe that potentialy has asbestos within it. They might be doing that kind of job day in and day out and it is these people that we need to protect from needless asbestos exposure.

Their the ones that are going ballistic about how stupidly OTT the regulations are these days

Slade2 said:
I work as a premise manager and I have type 2 surveys for all the buildings I manage. If I know a contractor is due on site I will meet with him and we will look at the register and have a brief documented chat and I wil complete a quick form detailing the converstation. If we suspect the area to contain asbestos I would have probably already been aware of the fact and ordered a type 3 survey or got another firm in to manage it for me. There are times when remedial jobs have to happen and you have to use better judgement I have signed off many jobs where I have given the contractor instructions to let me know if anything is found and work is to stop becuase like I said above it is the engineers at the rock face that matter.

So you would be perfectly happy if you sent somebody to change a boiler or something (anything) and they came back and said they couldn't proceed as the was a gasket that would be disturbed and they needed it testing before they can proceed as they have to assume its asbestos?

This isn't even limited to older sites, the installation could have been put in last year and under the regs I have seen they are still supposed to assume its asbestos unless they know for certain it isn't as the installation company could have used old gaskets they had in stock to try and save cash or gaskets imported from a country that still uses asbestos (most still do).

If your fine with all of that your one of the only premises managers that would be. Most would just send us off site and get somebody in who would do the work

Lt_Red · 13 Jun 2012 at 13:47

It may seem as its a nanny state until you consider that Asbestos exposure is the single biggest work related killer in the UK at the moment.

There are nearly 3000 deaths a year related to asbestos exposure at the moment, compared to 3400 on the roads per year you can start to understand the intense regulation.

Slade2 · 13 Jun 2012 at 15:05

ubersonic said:
Their the ones that are going ballistic about how stupidly OTT the regulations are these days

So you would be perfectly happy if you sent somebody to change a boiler or something (anything) and they came back and said they couldn't proceed as the was a gasket that would be disturbed and they needed it testing before they can proceed as they have to assume its asbestos?

This isn't even limited to older sites, the installation could have been put in last year and under the regs I have seen they are still supposed to assume its asbestos unless they know for certain it isn't as the installation company could have used old gaskets they had in stock to try and save cash or gaskets imported from a country that still uses asbestos (most still do).

If your fine with all of that your one of the only premises managers that would be. Most would just send us off site and get somebody in who would do the work

You are correct in what you say but you also have to understand that asbestos use has been banned in the construction industry since the mid 80`s. Certain asbestos containing materials were still manufactuered and used until 1999) I dont know of any contractors that would be carrying around 12 year old gasgets to potentially make use of them on a boiler they might come across.

I would have to prove I have taken resonable steps to ensure I would not be exposing anyone to asbestos and if the boiler in question was fitted within the last 10 years I can safety assume that it doesnt contain any asbestos. If it turns out that it did and someone was esposed i would be pointing the finger at the contractor that fitted the boiler illegally in the first place.

Like i said I am normally aware of any issues as soon as they arrive and if I know of a particular area of the building that contains asbestos I would have made previous arrangements with an asbestos company to deal with it before contacting the boiler company.

Lt_Red · 13 Jun 2012 at 15:07

Sorry to appear a smart arse, but the installation of certain types of heat retardant and hot water gaskets (particularly those used in ad-hoc repair works) were not completely outlawed until 2005. I'll go away now.

Slade2 · 13 Jun 2012 at 15:13

ubersonic said:
So you would be perfectly happy if you sent somebody to change a boiler or something (anything) and they came back and said they couldn't proceed as the was a gasket that would be disturbed and they needed it testing before they can proceed as they have to assume its asbestos?

This is exactly what the legislation is there to do. Its to protect that guy from later in life dying from cancer linked asbestosis.

Lt_Red · 13 Jun 2012 at 15:17

Oh.. erm... the largest threat from asbestos exposure is Mesothelioma, a condition only related to exposure to asbestos, incurable and always fatal. The number of Asbestosis deaths are relatively minor in comparison as usually the subjects lifespan is naturally over before the asbestos cancer related issues become fatal - that is unless they are a smoker or were exposed at a young age. These types of cancer can be treated with normal anti-cancer therapies also. Mesothelioma cannot. I really will go away now...

ubersonic · 13 Jun 2012 at 15:21

Slade2 said:
This is exactly what the legislation is there to do. Its to protect that guy from later in life dying from cancer linked asbestosis.

Do you not find it a little ridiculous though? its like taking your car to a garage and the mechanic says "sorry I can't work on cars any more until they have been fully tested for asbestos, I know its a brand new car but the are a lot of Chinese brake parts coming into the country which contain asbestos so im going to have to assume your car has asbestos in it until its been proven otherwise"

ZG002 · 13 Jun 2012 at 17:29

How else are they going to regulate it? I'd rather find it hard keeping work than risking a life destroying episode later on.

Castiel · 13 Jun 2012 at 17:39

Lt_Red said:
Technically speaking your employer is responsible. The truth is that by the time you discover you have an asbestos related illness, chances are that employer will be long gone. There is a insurance central fund that that those with ARI's can use for compensation in the event that the worst comes to the worst and the employer is no longer trading.

However if the miners get their way that'll be gone in a few years...

If you ever feel you have been exposed to dangerous levels of asbestos make bloody sure it is reported to the HSE via form F2508.

A friend of mine has just died (January) from Mesothelioma...he got it from exposure to an asbestos oven quite a few years ago...He was awarded a six figure compensation sum from the owner of the Restaurant in which he worked even through the restaurant close years ago.....

Adam_151 · 13 Jun 2012 at 17:40

MeEsH BaKkA said:
For example the amount of times I have pulled an old ceramic fuse out to re wire it and there is asbestos flash padding behind them is countless but seeing as I have already removed the fuse I just go outside re-wire and then reinsert the fuse. Dangerous, technically but TBH pretty much everyone has been exposed to asbestos at some point anyway.

Not sure finding the asbestos flash bad should be a supprise... you can usually tell from the outside of the switchgear if they are likely. But when are are called to a site because a fuse has blown there is not a lot you can do other than pull it out to sort it out. I had a similar debate with our asbestos training people last year, and they weren't able to give me a staight forward answer, mostly was "its a low risk, but wouldn't really advise it unless unavoidable" type advice which does't really help.