ATi's Physics Solution....What ya thinking?

[Marc Fraser]

The $200K is on top of the standard license fee for the Havok API. This is purely to enable Effect Physics on the GPU which means more debris and smoke effects. These will not add to the actual way games are played just the visual appearance. The actual game physics will still be executed on the CPU. This is my understanding on the information on Havok's website.

I do not know exactly how much the license fees are for the basic Havok API but it is probably more than the $50K for the Ageia API which is of course free if you support the PPU. Once you add an additional $200K to accelerate some debris it becomes pretty expensive.

Whilst Havok FX running on Nvidia and ATI hardware will no doubt look impressive, it will be purely cosmetic. In my opinion the potential of the Ageia PPU is by far greater, however, time will tell if it is successful. This will largely depend on how it is utilised by developers.

At present it is probably not worth buying a PPU as they are overpriced just to run a few games that use it poorly.

 

[Darkwave]

Is it really more widely used? Its just I have never seen any numbers relating to how many games use Havok or Ageia. I just know it’s a lot for both. I don’t have a clue which has the most games. Got any links?

You can find a list of current and upcoming games supporting Ageia PhysX here and a list of games that use Havok physics here. I think that it's safe to say, especially considering 35% of the PhysiX titles on that list are not even released yet, that the Havok physics is far more widely used at the moment.

Now all we need to do is hope that ATi and Nvidia don't screw it up.

 

[mqketucker]

until the physics chip is integrated onto the gpu card neither will take off as far as im concerned

 

[LoadsaMoney]

I didn't know the differance was that small tbh, so the Ageia has 14 titles less than the Havok on the PC, i thought there would have been more than that tbh, i didn't think the Ageia had that many titles.

 

[Darkwave]

I didn't know the differance was that small tbh, so the Ageia has 14 titles less than the Havok on the PC, i thought there would have been more than that tbh, i didn't think the Ageia had that many titles.

Ageia are picking up developers now, which is good for everybody in the end, but let's face it; With titles like Oblivion, Half Life 2, F.E.A.R., Halo, DDO, etc. squarely in the hands of Havok Inc. it's going to be a like pushing a boulder uphill for Ageia to distribute their API.

ATi (and Nvidia?) have made the right first move by going with Havok, let's just hope they don't Pull An Ageia™ on launch when it comes to performance.

 

[Marc Fraser]

Ageia are picking up developers now, which is good for everybody in the end, but let's face it; With titles like Oblivion, Half Life 2, F.E.A.R., Halo, DDO, etc. squarely in the hands of Havok Inc. it's going to be a like pushing a boulder uphill for Ageia to distribute their API.

ATi (and Nvidia?) have made the right first move by going with Havok, let's just hope they don't Pull An Ageia™ on launch when it comes to performance.

Why does it matter what API games that have already been released used? These are unlikely to benefit much from the Havok FX API that will run on the GPU as they will need to be heavily overhauled and patched to support it. In any event all this API will add is some smoke or debris effects.

When writing their next gen games the potential of a PPU to run the games entire physical simulation as opposed to some non interactive physics for debris will be quite a persuasive argument for taking a look at Ageia's API, especially when they will get it for free and the CPU will be freed up to handle more complex AI routines.

 

[Darkwave]

Why does it matter what API games that have already been released used? These are unlikely to benefit much from the Havok FX API that will run on the GPU as they will need to be heavily overhauled and patched to support it. In any event all this API will add is some smoke or debris effects.

Because developers tend to stick with partners they've worked well with in the past, and feel more comfortable about working with them on future titles. I don't think that Valve or Bethesda (to name a few) are disappointed with Havok Inc. and their physics engine, and I don't think that Havok Inc. are complaining about the massive amounts of dosh they probably made on those two games alone.

 

[Pottsey]

“You can find a list of current and upcoming games supporting Ageia PhysX here and a list of games that use Havok physics here.”
Come on that’s not fair. You cannot compare a small list of a small amount of the upcoming games with Ageia to a list of all game that are upcoming and out that use Havok and say there are more games that use Havok. What about all the games that are out that use Ageia?

That Ageia list are only games that use the PPU. Not all the older none PPU Ageia games.

If I do what you just did the other way around only showing the list of Havok GPU games eveyone would be shouting at me for being missleading.



"With titles like Oblivion, Half Life 2, F.E.A.R., Halo, DDO, etc. squarely in the hands of Havok Inc. it's going to be a like pushing a boulder uphill for Ageia to distribute their API."
What about all the major games that use Ageia? Dont they count? DDO is also a minor game. EDIT: I assume DDO is D&D Online?

As for pushing a boulder uphill for Ageia perhaps that’s why they made there API free while Havok bumped up there price by £200k on top or the normal price. That would make some developers swap.

 

[SteveOBHave]

I didn't know the differance was that small tbh, so the Ageia has 14 titles less than the Havok on the PC, i thought there would have been more than that tbh, i didn't think the Ageia had that many titles.

Come on that’s not fair. You cannot compare a list of upcoming games with Ageia to a list of all game that are upcoming and out that use Havok and say there are more games that use Havok. What about all the games that are out that use Ageia?

What about all the games that are out that use Ageia? Where are they? Does the Ageia website display this 'grand legacy' of games? Nope.

I've said it before, and I will say it again - Perception is Reality and all Ageia offer to the perception are 24 up and coming titles versus around 150 titles from Havok (be they for PC MAC or Console) this still displays more of a pedegree than the Ageia team.

It boils down to what we were discussing before, while the hardware is very cool (and it is, it's a piece of genius) they are getting let down by their marketing team. I would suspect that as a games developer you would desire confidence in your business partners and in the knowledge that they hold. To the average Joe that goes looking on Ageias site versus Havoks site, I could hazzard a guess as to the perception they would get.

I see it a little like the Linux versus Windows argument - well all know that Linux is a smarter, more powerful and generally better looking OS but well all go with Windows because "thats what everyone else is doing".

 

[Pottsey]

“To the average Joe that goes looking on Ageias site versus Havoks site, I could hazzard a guess as to the perception they would get.”
Ageia would look better as they have all the fancy videos and screen shots of high end physics compared to nothing on Havok site. At least nothing I can see but that could be due to internet filtering at work. Let me know if I am wrong.




“What about all the games that are out that use Ageia? Where are they? Does the Ageia website display this 'grand legacy' of games? Nope.”
Just because Ageia don’t show a list does not mean the games are not out. There are plenty of major games that use Ageia API.




“they are getting let down by their marketing team.”
I can certainly agree with that. Rise of Nations was a completely mess and handled poorly.

 

[SteveOBHave]

“To the average Joe that goes looking on Ageias site versus Havoks site, I could hazzard a guess as to the perception they would get.”
Ageia would look better as they have all the fancy videos and screen shots of high end physics compared to nothing on Havok site. At least nothing I can see but that could be due to internet filtering at work. Let me know if I am wrong.

I would suspect the whopping great list of big name games on the Havok games would be a little more impressive. We're talking about tangible examples that you can go down to the shop, install and play. You can only look at videos of promises so much...

“What about all the games that are out that use Ageia? Where are they? Does the Ageia website display this 'grand legacy' of games? Nope.”
Just because Ageia don’t show a list does not mean the games are not out. There are plenty of major games that use Ageia API.

Granted, but how are we supposed to know about these games if they aren't publicised? Remember what I said about perception being reality.

 

[JonnyGLC]

“What about all the games that are out that use Ageia? Where are they? Does the Ageia website display this 'grand legacy' of games? Nope.”
Just because Ageia don’t show a list does not mean the games are not out. There are plenty of major games that use Ageia API.

Want to name some of these?

 

[Darkwave]

“You can find a list of current and upcoming games supporting Ageia PhysX here and a list of games that use Havok physics here.”
Come on that’s not fair. You cannot compare a small list of a small amount of the upcoming games with Ageia to a list of all game that are upcoming and out that use Havok and say there are more games that use Havok. What about all the games that are out that use Ageia?

As far as I know, I just posted the list of games that use Ageia PhysX. Feel free to post the rest, I can't find them.

That Ageia list are only games that use the PPU. Not all the older none PPU Ageia games.

If I do what you just did the other way around only showing the list of Havok GPU games eveyone would be shouting at me for being missleading.

Are you insinuating that I am trying to paint a bad picture of Ageia? Please, if you're going to get defensive with brand loyalty, stop talking right now.

I just think that Ageia would've been more successful had they used an existing API like the Havok physics engine, which is an already hugely successful engine used in many extremely popular titles across pretty much every platform.

I'm also genuinely concerned that Havok Inc. might balls it up performance wise like Ageia did in the beginning, so I hardly favour Havok, I just think it's the more successful engine by a long-shot.

"With titles like Oblivion, Half Life 2, F.E.A.R., Halo, DDO, etc. squarely in the hands of Havok Inc. it's going to be a like pushing a boulder uphill for Ageia to distribute their API."
What about all the major games that use Ageia? Dont they count? DDO is also a minor game. EDIT: I assume DDO is D&D Online?

As for pushing a boulder uphill for Ageia perhaps that’s why they made there API free while Havok bumped up there price by £200k on top or the normal price. That would make some developers swap.

Where is this list of major games that use Ageia? As far as I know, I just posted it. Also, how is DDO a minor game? Dungeons & Dragons is one of the most recognised gaming licenses in the world, and is rapidly growing as an MMORPG too.

As for price, what's wrong with charging for a fantastic and very successful physics engine? £200k is hardly going to break the bank for a games developer, an Havok Inc. are a business not a charity. Have you considered that maybe Ageia are actually trying to give people a reason to use their engine? Again there's nothing wrong with that.

“To the average Joe that goes looking on Ageias site versus Havoks site, I could hazzard a guess as to the perception they would get.”
Ageia would look better as they have all the fancy videos and screen shots of high end physics compared to nothing on Havok site. At least nothing I can see but that could be due to internet filtering at work. Let me know if I am wrong.

This is what we call a style over substance fallacy.

“What about all the games that are out that use Ageia? Where are they? Does the Ageia website display this 'grand legacy' of games? Nope.”
Just because Ageia don’t show a list does not mean the games are not out. There are plenty of major games that use Ageia API.

Where is the list?

 

[LoadsaMoney]

I would suspect the whopping great list of big name games on the Havok games would be a little more impressive.

Whopping great list, wheres this one, the list i saw only had 14 more titles than the Ageia list.

 

[jrodga2k5]

Lets face it a cheap gfx card for physics processing makes much more sence than spending £200 on something that adds some effects but doesnt improve anything really at all!

At the end of the day I and a lot of others will be unwilling to spend an extra £200 on something like a physics processor.....id rathr spend sub £100 on a graphics card that can do the same thing and at the end of the day if ** no1 gfx card choice ceased working you would also have your extra card as a backup!

Pottsey sorry to say but always have postives to say when it comes to Aegia....one negative iv seen was the marketing for RoL and thats about it!

This ATi solution due to Havok already being evry well established with big name developers and also the cost compared to Aegia'skinda makes this one a no brainer! And to the mass market where price is crucial, ATi are going the right way crack it!

 

[Marc Fraser]

Lets face it a cheap gfx card for physics processing makes much more sence than spending £200 on something that adds some effects but doesnt improve anything really at all!

At the end of the day I and a lot of others will be unwilling to spend an extra £200 on something like a physics processor.....id rathr spend sub £100 on a graphics card that can do the same thing and at the end of the day if ** no1 gfx card choice ceased working you would also have your extra card as a backup!

Pottsey sorry to say but always have postives to say when it comes to Aegia....one negative iv seen was the marketing for RoL and thats about it!

This ATi solution due to Havok already being evry well established with big name developers and also the cost compared to Aegia'skinda makes this one a no brainer! And to the mass market where price is crucial, ATi are going the right way crack it!

It makes it a no brainer if you don't really understand what each solution can offer. It has been pointed out by myself and others, and even by Havok that their solution does not do the same as the PPU.

The Havok GPU physics only accelerates some extra eyecandy physics. The actual game physics will still be done on the CPU.

For example, all the physics for the actual game world such as vehicles ,characters and movable items will be calculated on the CPU. The only things that could be calculated on the GPU are things such as debris and smoke effects. Once an explosion has taken place and debris created the objects in the world could not interact with them as their positional data is not fed back to the CPU. i.e. you could not pick up a piece of debris and throw it around. If you could it would have to be done on the CPU.

Ageia's solutions on the other hand can accelerate all the games physics on the PPU therefore allowing total interaction.

It is Havok's solution at present that will can only add a few visual effects not Ageia's. Havok's may be cheaper as you can use your old GPU but it appears no way near as powerful. This may change if there is a two way communication channel created between the CPU and GPU so that data can be fed back.

 

[SteveOBHave]

Whopping great list, wheres this one, the list i saw only had 14 more titles than the Ageia list.

I'm not talking specifically about PC games, I am talking about the list of games that have Havok implemented full stop (which according to Havok, so it could be pap, is around 150).

Even if we only look at the PC games, you still have a larger number of working tangible examples of Havok than you do of PhysX.

I'm not looking at this from a which is better perspective, more a "which is marketed" better.

 

[Pottsey]

”Want to name some of these?”
There are lots if you got out and look. Like D&D Dragonshard among lots of others.



“Are you insinuating that I am trying to paint a bad picture of Ageia? Please, if you're going to get defensive with brand loyalty, stop talking right now.”
Its not that you’re painting a bad picture it’s your painting an unfair picture. I asked for a list comparing the amount of games between the two API’s and instead you listed a small part of the upcoming Ageia list against the full Havok list then you said “Havok physics is far more widely used at the moment.” Well of course it’s more widely used when you discount 90% of the Ageia games. I really don’t have a clue, which is more widely used. But I do have a problem with people making stuff up and saying Havok is more widely used when we have no idea as we don’t have a full list.




“, how is DDO a minor game? Dungeons & Dragons is one of the most recognised gaming licenses in the world, and is rapidly growing as an MMORPG too.”
It is a recognised license. But DDO it self is a small game as MMORPG go with low subscription numbers and it’s minor game compared to Half Life 2 and other games of its class. Major games are games that sell way over 200k+ units.





“Where is the list? “
There isn’t one that I am aware off which is why I was wondering how people could be so sure there are more Havok games when we don’t even know how many games use Ageia’s API.

 

[Darkwave]

Ah, so in other words Pottsey, you're talking pure speculation with nothing to back up anything you're saying whatsoever. Well, why didn't you just say so?

I don't think I'll be the only one who thinks they've wastes too much time here.

 

[SteveOBHave]

Its not that you’re painting a bad picture it’s your painting an unfair picture. I asked for a list comparing the amount of games between the two API’s and instead you listed a small part of the upcoming Ageia list against the full Havok list then you said “Havok physics is far more widely used at the moment.” Well of course it’s more widely used when you discount 90% of the Ageia games. I really don’t have a clue, which is more widely used. But I do have a problem with people making stuff up and saying Havok is more widely used when we have no idea as we don’t have a full list.

90%????????? where did that number come from? Are you talking about games that use the Novodex API?

perception = reality...


muhuhahahahaha - Check this out... just found on the front page of the Ageia web site...

http://www.ageia.com/

60+ 100+

60+ leading publishers & developers are now using AGEIA PhysX in 100+ new games. Game On.

LOL - almost like they are reading this thread???? hahahahahaha I love it - check out the creation date on the 60+ 100+ image... 20/06/2006... could that be today???? bwahahahaha... somebody here works for Ageia...

EDIT: If you wanted me to do your PR for you Ageia, you could've asked! LOL