Auto or manual

ttaskmaster said:
Then I hope you're the next **** that gets crashed into when your lights blind someone.

Seriously, if you don't care enough to even consider other peoples' perspectives on things, and how you might be causing a serious problem, then that is the sort of fate you deserve.
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should have gone to spec savers... infact why are you driving consciously with such a visual impairment. Section 59!
 
Simon said:
Not even worth replying to that.
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Ugh. But I'm a sucker for punishment.

ttaskmaster said:
Then why (or even how) is it 'auto' hold if you're controlling it?
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Definition of automatic:

1. (of a device or process) working by itself with little or no direct human control.
"an automatic kettle that switches itself off when it boils"

So this case, the car is applying braking force, without me applying force to the pedal. So it falls under the very definition of the word.

ttaskmaster said:
Bearing in mind you yourself were mentioning a few posts back how you were doing one thing, while your car decided to do another... That doesn't sound completely in control of the decision process.
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That was in relation to Automatic Stop/Start. Not auto-hold.

ttaskmaster said:
Except that you're not the one deciding when they do or don't happen, or when they get released/turned off... That is, after all, the point of auto functions - For the car to detect something and reckon it should be doing X, even if you're trying to do Y or Z.
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I'm not sure what is quite so hard to understand about how this works, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, because I think I might have misled you when I said I "press the brake pedal, then press a button".
I can see how that's confusing, so to clarify...I'm not pressing the "auto hold" button each time I want it to hold the brake pedal for me.
"Auto-hold" is a functionality than can be toggled on or off, at any time. And it basically affects the behaviour of the car depending on which state it's on:

Auto hold function off:
1. With the car in Drive, stop car with the brake pedal.
2. Release brake pedal.
3. Car creeps forward, like any other torque convertor transmission.

Auto hold function on:
1. With the car in Drive, stop car with the brake pedal.
2. Release brake pedal
3. Car doesn't move. The car automatically keeps pressure on the brakes (via the electronic parking brake) to hold the car still.

I am still deciding when to apply the brakes, and ultimately how the transmission reacts.
As I said, with the functionality turned on, then physically it's not really any different to applying a manual ratchet handbrake; both states are initiated by me, but maintained "automatically" (by electronic servo in the first case, or a ratchet mechanism in the second) without direct input from me.

Ergo, "auto hold" is an appropriate name for the function, and doesn't imply a lack of control, or imply that the system is taking decision making out of my hands.


ttaskmaster said:
Who decides when Auto-Hold activates? You or the car?
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See above explanation.

ttaskmaster said:
What are you doing holding the brake pedal while sat in traffic? If you're stationary for any period longer than a few seconds, you should be using the handbrake and keeping your foot of the brake anyway. :p
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Which is essentially what the auto hold function mimics. It basically applies the parking brake when you stop, without having to activate it by pressing a button at the time. You simply stop, take your foot off the brake, and the car wont creep. So if you're in stop/start traffic, you don't have to keep applying the handbrake to stop the car creeping; you just release the brake pedal once you're at a stop.

Hope that clears it up.
 
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Conscript said:
Auto hold function off:
1. With the car in Drive, stop car with the brake pedal.
2. Release brake pedal.
3. Car creeps forward, like any other torque convertor transmission.

Auto hold function on:
1. With the car in Drive, stop car with the brake pedal.
2. Release brake pedal
3. Car doesn't move. The car automatically keeps pressure on the brakes (via the electronic parking brake) to hold the car still.
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I think this probably perfectly highlights why my Mondeo has the problem I describe above. Whilst I have both the torque convertor auto, and an automatic parking brake. I dont have any kind of auto hold function, essentially meaning I have to choose between your option 1 (which annoyingly restarts my engine and trys to creep against the handbrake), knock it into neutral each time, or keep my foot on the brake mimicing auto hold myself.
 
Jonnycoupe said:
should have gone to spec savers... infact why are you driving consciously with such a visual impairment. Section 59!
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I did go to Spec Savers, and also have regular enhanced vision tests as I work on railways. My vision is almost perfect. Not quite 20-20, but very close.
Anyway, ISTR you drive a Mini and get lots of people flashing you over the bright lights - Are they all in need of Spec Savers too?

Conscript said:
Definition of automatic:
1. (of a device or process) working by itself with little or no direct human control.
"an automatic kettle that switches itself off when it boils"
So this case, the car is applying braking force, without me applying force to the pedal. So it falls under the very definition of the word.
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Not true - In your own words, you first have to enable the function in the first place, and then you have to "1. With the car in Drive, stop car with the brake pedal. 2. Release brake pedal".

So that's two conscious and direct actions required from you before the function will operate, and at the end of the day it's essentially just an inert holding catch. Nothing 'automatic' about it at all, based on your own definition and description.

However, I am referring to those functions that are automatic, in that they operate independent of driver decision and action, such as the VW one that applies the handbrake (more like an e-brake, IIRC) if it detects so much as a shrub at the front of the space you're trying to park in... That actually happened when I took one for a test drive, and why I ended up not buying the car.
 
ttaskmaster said:
So that's two conscious and direct actions required from you before the function will operate, and at the end of the day it's essentially just an inert holding catch. Nothing 'automatic' about it at all, based on your own definition and description.
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It's literally called 'automatic hold'. You drive the car normally and if you stop it automatically applies the handbrake until you then move off. It is the definition of an automated function.
 
I think Simon was right. Give me a shout if you want to stop feigning ignorance over basic transmission functions, or what the word "automatic" means, and I'll be happy to discuss further. Until then, I'm out.
 
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I drive manual and Auto. In the Manual I find it much easier to knock it into N and apply the manual handbrake can do this very quick at a set of lights no bother.

In the Auto I get all confused and just rest my foot on the brake pedal, the Guilia creeps in gear and the auto handbrake I don't like. Plus having to pull back for forward on the selector stick is baffling, why not forward to drive and back for reverse??? Slowly getting used to it :D
 
creep on dsg cars is implemented by slipping the clutch no ? , whereas auto hold, for dsg, presumably puts it in park, so should be more mechanically sympathetic/preferable ?

[brake lights are too bright now, though, agree -
in a manual, even if it's in neutral, I keep my foot on the brake if its a risky location, otherwise you're less visible, genetically disadvantaged, than folks where lights automatically stay on ]
 
jpaul said:
creep on dsg cars is implemented by slipping the clutch no ? , whereas auto hold, for dsg, presumably puts it in park, so should be more mechanically sympathetic/preferable ?

[brake lights are too bright now, though, agree -
in a manual, even if it's in neutral, I keep my foot on the brake if its a risky location, otherwise you're less visible, genetically disadvantaged, than folks where lights automatically stay on ]
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Creep on mine happens when I've not selected N on the stick/or press the P when stationary also when stop start is disabled. The auto hold only applies when S/S is enabled and P is pressed on the stick then the handbrake is applied.

If you have been driving autos for years I guess it's like second nature. Also having to press the brake for P to release. In my mind from driving manual cars for donkeys years just resting my foot on the brake pedal in a Auto is much easier ha!!!
 
Simon said:
20-20 is perfect vision ?
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That is the standard at which no corrections are deemed necessary, so yes it is generally considered "perfect", even if your vision is beyond that measure.

[TW]Fox said:
It's literally called 'automatic hold'.
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So?
It's literally called a 'radiator', but it doesn't actually 'radiate' anything. It convects.
A vacuum cleaner does not involve anything close to an actual vacuum.
Or, since guns were brought up in an earlier post, it's literally called a silencer but doesn't actually 'silence' the shot.

What's your point?

[TW]Fox said:
You drive the car normally and if you stop it automatically applies the handbrake until you then move off. It is the definition of an automated function.
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You setting a mechanism and then doing something to trigger that mechanism does not make it automated.
If the mechanism subsequently resets itself, that part of the cycle would be automatic... and to bring in the gun analogy, that's where you get semiautomatics from.

Conscript said:
I think Simon was right. Give me a shout if you want to stop feigning ignorance over basic transmission functions, or what the word "automatic" means, and I'll be happy to discuss further. Until then, I'm out.
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I used your own definitions and descriptions, so any discrepancies you might have over meaning are down to your own specification.
You also know damn well what I was talking about, so if ever you are going to be less obtuse you're welcome to return to the conversation. Until then... Bye.

Conscript said:
Turns out machine guns aren't automatic because you have to pull the trigger.
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Turns out my oven is fully automatic, because you don't have to manually heat the food with your own hand.... !!
 
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