Autonomous Vehicles

But, I have a better safety record than the AVs. So having to use one would statistically put me and everyone around me at greater risk. Can't argue with statistics right...

That's not a statistically relevant comparison. There are thousands of AVs driving hundreds of millions of miles per year. There's one you, driving a few thousand miles per year.

You could similarly argue that AVs must have a perfect safety record as soon as there's a week with no accidents. After all, the software is improving continuously. It would be a bogus claim though, as the sample size wouldn't be large enough.
 
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That's not a lot. Road accidents aren't even close to being one of the biggest killers.

But, I have a better safety record than the AVs. So having to use one would statistically put me and everyone around me at greater risk. Can't argue with statistics right...

Realistically a significant proportion of that is “luck”. You’ve been lucky enough not to have been in an accident caused by someone else.

I was rear ended at a roundabout waiting to enter it, during my driving test, (which I subsequently continued and passed with three minors, after the examiner exchange dinsurance details).

Now, the point being is unless I pulled out into oncoming traffic there was no way of me avoiding this incident (evidenced by the fact my examiner didn’t even give me a minor for it). So yes, perhaps some of those incidents were “caused” by a the automated car, but realistically it may well have been there was no way of them avoiding it. And yes you may have a better safety record “on average” than all AV vehicles, but that’s not just because you’re a “good” driver. If you’re that good a driver then more AV cars on the roads will mean your “luck” is more likely to continue.

In the real world though the average driver is less safe than automated vehicles, and the more AV on the road the less deaths there will be on the roads, and the safer they will be for all of us.
 
I believe most people in the world would accept that saving many of the 1.3 million people killed in road accidents mostly caused by human driver error is a worthy goal that self driving vehicles can help us achieve.

You may well be the greatest driver ever to inhabit the earth. But the driver coming at you at speed, perhaps drunk, perhaps arguing with a passenger, perhaps exhibiting road rage, etc and who runs into you through no fault of your own and causes you massive injury or loss of life is an issue that can and should be addressed. If as I believe, self driving vehicles can massively reduce the chance of this happening to you and many other drivers around the world, it is a worthy effort.
Does that 1.3 million include places like india and china? Because if yes then IMO that skewers the results heavily to make your point.
 
Does that 1.3 million include places like india and china? Because if yes then IMO that skewers the results heavily to make your point.

"I believe most people in the world would accept that saving many of the 1.3 million people killed in road accidents mostly caused by human driver error is a worthy goal that self driving vehicles can help us achieve."

Are you saying that prevention of human lives lost from road accidents caused by human driver error in China and India is not a worthy goal?
 
Does that 1.3 million include places like india and china? Because if yes then IMO that skewers the results heavily to make your point.

It will be worldwide, no way 1.3 million are killed in the UK or even all of Europe lol

But the places where the roads are most dangerous aren't going to care about, or afford AVs. They will just keep driving their beat up old cars and motorbikes.
 
Uk number is very low, increasing safety systems in cars (lolz things such as lane assist, driver awareness monitoring, city braking etc) is reducing it even though volume of cars is going up (slowly)
This ignores life changing events though which are quite significant, but harder to get stats on, so such things as limb damage etc (see below)

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/annual-road-fatalities

Road casualties is quite a lot higher, so an injury being noted (2015 stats)
  • road deaths decreased by 2% compared with 2014, falling to 1,732
  • the number of people seriously injured decreased by 3% to 22,137
  • there were a total of 186,209 casualties of all severities
  • 140,086 personal-injury road traffic accidents were reported to the police
  • reported child casualties fell by 4% to 16,101, compared with 2014
  • traffic volumes rose by 1.6% compared with 2014
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-in-great-britain-main-results-2015
 
Uk number is very low, increasing safety systems in cars (lolz things such as lane assist, driver awareness monitoring, city braking etc) is reducing it even though volume of cars is going up (slowly)
This ignores life changing events though which are quite significant, but harder to get stats on, so such things as limb damage etc (see below)

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/annual-road-fatalities

Road casualties is quite a lot higher, so an injury being noted (2015 stats)
  • road deaths decreased by 2% compared with 2014, falling to 1,732
  • the number of people seriously injured decreased by 3% to 22,137
  • there were a total of 186,209 casualties of all severities
  • 140,086 personal-injury road traffic accidents were reported to the police
  • reported child casualties fell by 4% to 16,101, compared with 2014
  • traffic volumes rose by 1.6% compared with 2014
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-in-great-britain-main-results-2015

Thing is though, I think those stats include incidents which didn't even involve vehicles. Like people falling/jumping off bridges or cyclists crashing on their own.

Many are bikers binning it on empty roads too, which AVs aren't going to have an impact on.
 
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Thing is though, I think those stats include incidents which didn't even involve vehicles. Like people falling/jumping off bridges or cyclists crashing on their own.

Many are bikers binning it on empty roads too, which AVs aren't going to have an impact on.


Incorrect.

All those stats quoted are deaths in road traffic incidents, involving PLG & HGV road vehicles, (cars vans lorries) occurring on the public highway, and reported to the police, where the casualty sustained injuries which caused death less than 30 days after the accident.

Confirmed suicides are excluded.

Pedal cyclists, and motorcyclists, are excluded as they have all their own separate data, and are not included in vehicle data stats.
 
Thing is though, I think those stats include incidents which didn't even involve vehicles. Like people falling/jumping off bridges or cyclists crashing on their own.

Many are bikers binning it on empty roads too, which AVs aren't going to have an impact on.

I dont think they include the first, but its hard to get to the full definition most of the time

Will certainly include bikers yes when involved with a car etc
 
I dont think they include the first, but its hard to get to the full definition most of the time

Will certainly include bikers yes when involved with a car etc

From what I have read, the World Health Organisation (WHO) is regarded as the leading source of global road traffic injuries.

Here is the last report I found from May 2017, and here are the highlights from the report:

"
  • More than 1.25 million people die each year as a result of road traffic crashes.
  • Road traffic injuries are the leading cause of death among people aged between 15 and 29 years.
  • 90% of the world's fatalities on the roads occur in low- and middle-income countries, even though these countries have approximately 54% of the world's vehicles.
  • Nearly half of those dying on the world’s roads are “vulnerable road users”: pedestrians, cyclists, and motorcyclists.
  • Road traffic crashes cost most countries 3% of their gross domestic product.
  • Without sustained action, road traffic crashes are predicted to become the seventh leading cause of death by 2030.
  • The newly adopted 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development has set an ambitious target of halving the global number of deaths and injuries from road traffic crashes by 2020.
  • "
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs358/en/
 
While this Community topic focus is on autonomous vehicles, it is very likely that AVs will fit into a bigger picture---namely the development of smart cities. Many of us are building smart homes (smart home devices linked to smart thermostats, smart lighting, smart appliances, etc), so it would seem logical that development will take place in the cities around us, of which AVs will form a part.

Companies like Sidewalk Labs, a unit of Alphabet (Google) aims to integrate technology when possible to create a more efficient and heavily automated urban environment. Sidewalk Labs has already redesigned New York City phone booths into digital billboards that have become WiFi hotspots. They recently introduced a similar concept in London. Other Sidewalk projects include one in Ohio which expects to reduce cost of living by reducing commutes and attempting to reduce carbon footprint.

Recently, Toronto has announced a partnership with Sidewalk Labs to develop a "smart city" section of the city known as Quayside, in eastern Toronto. Sidewalk is currently holding discussions with stakeholders in Toronto who would be affected by their plans to build a smart city, following an agreement between local Government and Sidewalk through Waterfront Toronto's decision to "greenlight" the project.

What is your opinion of living in a "smart city"? Do you see it as a natural extension of your smart home taken outside that will improve your life, reduce costs of living, reduce carbon footprints, redesign road use, improve road safety, etc or do you see it in more Orwellian terms like this link to the Daily Mail today suggests?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5278515/Citizens-monitored-turn-Google-city.html
 
While this Community topic focus is on autonomous vehicles, it is very likely that AVs will fit into a bigger picture---namely the development of smart cities. Many of us are building smart homes (smart home devices linked to smart thermostats, smart lighting, smart appliances, etc), so it would seem logical that development will take place in the cities around us, of which AVs will form a part.

I hate the whole "smart" thing. Connecting everything to the internet and everything else isn't smart. Most people who know their way around technology know that, but it's sold to the clueless masses anyway :/
 
From what I have read, the World Health Organisation (WHO) is regarded as the leading source of global road traffic injuries.

Here is the last report I found from May 2017, and here are the highlights from the report:

"
  • More than 1.25 million people die each year as a result of road traffic crashes.
  • Road traffic injuries are the leading cause of death among people aged between 15 and 29 years.
  • 90% of the world's fatalities on the roads occur in low- and middle-income countries, even though these countries have approximately 54% of the world's vehicles.
  • Nearly half of those dying on the world’s roads are “vulnerable road users”: pedestrians, cyclists, and motorcyclists.
  • Road traffic crashes cost most countries 3% of their gross domestic product.
  • Without sustained action, road traffic crashes are predicted to become the seventh leading cause of death by 2030.
  • The newly adopted 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development has set an ambitious target of halving the global number of deaths and injuries from road traffic crashes by 2020.
  • "
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs358/en/

"I believe most people in the world would accept that saving many of the 1.3 million people killed in road accidents mostly caused by human driver error is a worthy goal that self driving vehicles can help us achieve."

Are you saying that prevention of human lives lost from road accidents caused by human driver error in China and India is not a worthy goal?

If you include countries like China and India then then better driver education and road infrastructure would be the best way to drive that number down because it is quicker and cheaper (to an extent). Also these countries tend to lack these things, which is why the road deaths are so high over their. as well as driving older cars which don't have the latest designs in injury mitigation

Considering that if you want to make an impact on the global death toll you would need to target these countries I don't think it is reasonable to believe that the general populous of these countries will be able to afford an AV. I also doubt that an AV would be able to handle those driving conditions. Therefore i think including these countries in your argument is misleading.

I hate the whole "smart" thing. Connecting everything to the internet and everything else isn't smart. Most people who know their way around technology know that, but it's sold to the clueless masses anyway :/

Reminds me of "smart" motorways
 
"I believe most people in the world would accept that saving many of the 1.3 million people killed in road accidents mostly caused by human driver error is a worthy goal that self driving vehicles can help us achieve."

Are you saying that prevention of human lives lost from road accidents caused by human driver error in China and India is not a worthy goal?
I'm not so sure. You have to balance liberty against lives saved. That probably sounds callous but...

We could save lives by banning smoking (we don't). By banning sugar (we won't). Alcohol. Fizzy drinks. Unhealthy food. By forcing people to do X,Y,Z or not do A,B,C. e: In Africa, we could save millions of lives by stopping people having sex :p

We could save billions of lives but where do you stop? When we're all immortal drones with no freedom? :p

I like driving a car. I like being able to drive a car anywhere using a route of my own choosing, which may not be the quickest/safest. I like not having to programme in my route but instead being able to hop in and go where I please. I like being in control. I like the freedom.

Antonymous vehicles might save lives eventually. Anyone who thinks there won't be a spike in deaths when these things hit the roads probably has too much faith in the systems. Not just the software - but the sensors, etc. Also these things when they get out of the prototype phase are going to be built to keep costs down. Triple-redundancy on that sensor? Nah, we'll just have the one, shave $20 off the production cost...

Like the OP I still think we're decades away from antonymous vehicles being mainstream. And I'm glad. Drive sensibly, do your best to stay safe. That's all anyone can ask. But value your freedom. If/when AVs are the only legal means of transport... guess how long before certain places are "off-limits" unless you have the correct clearance... Want to drive to X,Y,Z? You either have to pay $$$ or be a VIP.
 
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In the real world though the average driver is less safe than automated vehicles, and the more AV on the road the less deaths there will be on the roads, and the safer they will be for all of us.
There are surely other means if your goal is safer roads.

For one - legally mandated vehicle performance tracking. Your vehicle records its location, speed, acceleration and various other parameters like an aeroplane's black box. This data is automatically periodically sent for analysis - like when you recharge.

Yes you would still face the prospect of criminals et al removing/hacking/disabling the devices. But you could also reduce the need for police manning mobile speed cameras. Maybe couple it with monitoring technology embedded in the roads themselves, street lights, etc. Every street light could be turned into an average speed monitoring device, communicating with something embedded in each vehicle. Etc, etc.

For me I see this as a more tolerable form of technology impacting my driving experience (mostly because it won't). I can still hop in the car and go where I please, how I please. So long as I drive legally and safely I have nothing to worry about from the systems monitoring my performance. And perhaps idiots will get caught out/grassed up by their own cars...

For me, personally, the interesting thing about AVs isn't their safety. It's the idea that we might not need to own a car but could summon one. I'd just personally like to be able to summon one and then drive it manually. That would be pretty cool.
 
Yea we could probably save a few million lives by banning TV and forcing people to go outside and exercise :D

Like the OP I still think we're decades away from antonymous vehicles being mainstream. And I'm glad. Drive sensibly, do your best to stay safe. That's all anyone can ask. But value your freedom. If/when AVs are the only legal means of transport... guess how long before certain places are "off-limits" unless you have the correct clearance... Want to drive to X,Y,Z? You either have to pay $$$ or be a VIP.

Yep, I wouldn't be surprised if that is the ultimate goal. Stick a freedom people rely on behind a paywall.
 
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This won't stop deaths on the road in the way they think it will. With millions of AVs some WILL go wrong and crash. Even the best IT systems don't have an expected up time of 100%, at 99% that's still a lot of accidents.

The best IT systems have an expected uptime a helluva lot higher than 99% though - the expected downtime is orders of magnitude lower than 1%.
That said, I agree that there will be accidents and part of the issue will be when people die as a result there will be a big backlash against the technology, perhaps disproportionate relative to the scale of the problem compared to other killers.
I've said it before, if human driven cars were a new thing introduced now they will likely be subject to much more stringent controls / legislation based on the number of deaths. New tech that results in injuries and deaths gets clamped down on hard - can you imagine the media storm if any technology, never mind cars, was involved directly or indirectly in over a million deaths a year? - but incumbent technology not so much, it is just accepted matter-of-fact. Similar scenario with alcohol, tobacco etc - if they were new products people would baulk at the health implications.

Overall although I can't wait for safe, reliable, affordable AV I am sceptical about the timelines discussed. Sadly, I think I will have retired before I can have one. I think there are too many variables to program for with current and near-future technology; even with adaptive AI I would expect cars to encounter unexpected scenarios and not know how to respond (which happens with humans too, but again, 'human error' is just accepted as a fact of life by people whereas 'system error' is not).

In some ways I'd be more confident about the effectiveness of autonomous flying vehicles because the terrain is much more predictable, you have some challenges around coping with failures I suppose (a car is already on the ground if if it fails so easier to get out without injury etc, compared to something falling out of the sky) but basically you just have to worry about other air traffic, perhaps compensate for weather conditions more but at least you have no pedestrians to worry about, and more flexibility to route around problems rather than being constrained by roads.
 
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The best IT systems have an expected uptime a helluva lot higher than 99% though - the expected downtime is orders of magnitude lower than 1%.
That said, I agree that there will be accidents and part of the issue will be when people die as a result there will be a big backlash against the technology, perhaps disproportionate relative to the scale of the problem compared to other killers.
I've said it before, if human driven cars were a new thing introduced now they will likely be subject to much more stringent controls / legislation based on the number of deaths. New tech that results in injuries and deaths gets clamped down on hard - can you imagine the media storm if any technology, never mind cars, was involved directly or indirectly in over a million deaths a year? - but incumbent technology not so much, it is just accepted matter-of-fact. Similar scenario with alcohol, tobacco etc - if they were new products people would baulk at the health implications.

Overall although I can't wait for safe, reliable, affordable AV I am sceptical about the timelines discussed. Sadly, I think I will have retired before I can have one. I think there are too many variables to program for with current and near-future technology; even with adaptive AI I would expect cars to encounter unexpected scenarios and not know how to respond (which happens with humans too, but again, 'human error' is just accepted as a fact of life by people whereas 'system error' is not).

In some ways I'd be more confident about the effectiveness of autonomous flying vehicles because the terrain is much more predictable, you have some challenges around coping with failures I suppose (a car is already on the ground if if it fails so easier to get out without injury etc, compared to something falling out of the sky) but basically you just have to worry about other air traffic, perhaps compensate for weather conditions more but at least you have no pedestrians to worry about, and more flexibility to route around problems rather than being constrained by roads.

Pretty good summary.
Most of the doubters in regards AV seem to start by saying its not going to happen, but sooner or later put a I don't like how its going to change something I like.

I honestly think we will see some mass limited area systems quite quickly. Completely open, ie travel anywhere systems, as we all agree there are some significant issues in that regard.
It would in fact be a hell of a lot easier if we were starting from scratch, we would have a better road layout, better constructed roads, and build in technology that helps the AV rather than making it harder.
However eventually I am fairly sure we will look back on the days when we functioned as we do today and laugh. When I say we, I suspect most frequenting this forum will be long dead.

The thing that doubles or more the challenge of AV is the having to coincide with humans driving around, normally badly.

This morning on my drive in I saw a car on its side on a bend. It was icy, its always icy there. Driver error. It can't be anything else but failure to drive to the conditions.
This is the sort of error that should be dialled out by AV/AI, not saying there may not be some new ones, but as humans we still haven't adapted to stop making the same errors we always have, at least as AV/AI evolves it should get better every generation.

IMHO more than anything we should push some of the tech now that helps improve the safety and is precursor required tech for AV, so lane following, safe distance tech etc

Same journey this morning, once I joined the more main road i use which is single carriageway. I caught a chain of about 15 cars, guy at the back driving a newish volvo was constatntly braking when the car in front wasn't, it was icy in patches and someone was very cautious at the front, doing 45-55 so clearly some of the drivers were struggling to cope in this scenario, being the sort who think if the limit is 60 thats somehow the target. Hes exactly the sort of driver who probably classifies himself as good, or better than average, yet hes failing in the fundamental of keeping a reasonable distance to the car in front. If he had safe distance tech active he would have been further back, and wouldn't have needed to keep braking (when all the other cars in front were not).
 
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