Av speaker upgrade worth it ?

[danny77]

A couple of weeks ago I upgraded my av receiver, although still probably and rightly so considered entry lever gear the Onkyo TXNR676 was a massive improvement on the older and cheaper Pioneer vsx-323.

The speakers I'm currently using are a Tannoy TFX set although I have replaced the sub with a Cambridge Audio SX120. I have read about matching certain speakers to certain amps etc and i'm wondering if I can get a worthwhile upgrade by maybe changing my centre and front speakers .

When I first set the onkyo up I noticed a massive improvement in sound , everything just sounded better, music,normal tv,football, watching films you can now hear more things if that makes sense and levels seem better ie dialogue is clear now as before you'd have to turn it up really loud to hear speech.

So although the tannoys aren't the best speakers in the world the onkyo made them sound a lot better then they did with the pioneer, I've been looking at centre speakers at around £150 and then stand mounts for L and R front about the same price ,just unsure whether it would be an worthwhile upgrade and the difference would be negligible.

The centre speaker sits directly on the fireplace the tv is wall mounted just above , the left and right speakers and about 2 metres either side wall mounted in alcoves which are about 1200mm wide by 400mm deep.

 

[tom_nieto]

It's difficult to know for sure what sort of benefit you'll get at each budget point, but your new receiver can probably handle much better speakers. You'll probably get most benefit by changing the speakers for slightly larger ones. Ensure you match the centre to the fronts as best as you possibly can.

 

[lucid]

Short answer, Yes

A larger centre speaker will give you the biggest step-up in performance. A few things will happen.

First, subject to the speaker you buy, it should be more sensitive than the 85dB/W/m of the TFX Centre. That means it will make lower demands on the amp for power and that means more power for the other speakers. Second, you might get a step up from 6 Ohm to 8 Ohm impedance. It's difficult to sum up in a sentence, but an 8 Ohm speaker is drawing less current from the amp for the same amount of cone extension, so the amp has an easier time despite the contrary appearance that the speaker is higher resistance.

Next, bigger speakers go deeper, so more of the sound of the centre channel will be coming from the centre speaker rather than the sub. The TFX goes down to 140Hz, and that's in the middle-ish area of what's considered the male vocal range (85Hz-180Hz). A bigger speaker might also be built better (a cost/performance thing) so the cabinet won't vibrate as much with the sound.

Finally, something like 80% of what you hear during the course of a film comes from the centre channel. The fronts and surrounds are used, but they're just idling most of the time compared to the work done by the centre. So that's why improving the quality of the centre makes the biggest difference.

The front L&R are still important, and they should match the tonal character of the centre. The easiest way to achieve this is to buy from the same range. The work they do focusses mainly on music, effects and some steering for panning effects. You get the same benefits of build, sensitivity, impedance, frequency range as the centre.

 

[danny77]

Thanks for the replies, Lucid from reading some of your post on here you know a lot about av and the ins and outs of gear , if you was limited to getting the speakers from rs would there be any 3 speaker set up you would recommend trying for £300 to £400 or there about, or do I need to look at upping the budget.I know its low end gear etc but there surely some better then others in that price point and better then what i'm currently using.

Also with regards the crossover of the speakers being 140Hz does that mean I should change the crossover setting or leave it as the accueq set ,I've read that accueq either works well or it doesn't and people tend to get varying results, I know you can set distance and levels etc but not compensate for things like the auto cal would , is it worth paying someone to set up ? Thanks again for your time

 

[hornetstinger]

Yes it would be worthwhile, but how far you go is up to you...but at your budget I'd be looking at second hand, you'll get more for your money. £400 should get you £1500 worth of speakers (when new)

Always change crossovers, as AVR's usually get it wrong.
You can tailor the sound to what AVR (or speakers) you have by changing the other. Some speaker brands do not match well with certain AVR's, and vice versa.

There are dozens of speaker and subwoofer brands.

Sky is the limit when it comes to speakers, subs, and AVR / power amplifiers. For music (CD) L/R are very important, center also- I recommend 4 driver centers. Sub is very important too.

It also depends on how much you're into AV, your long term plans, etc. Will you be upgrading again later on? Bigger room, louder, blow windows out, lots of subwoofery, power amplifier etc? Or just stick to more moderate gear?

When you buy new speakers, and sub always re-run the AVR room setup.

 

[hornetstinger]

Literally just comes to what speakers you want - budget, and size.

From standmount, mid-standmount, floorstander.

Also rears, sides, ceiling- atmos etc. Dual subs later on too?

I believe the room EQ in the Onkyos are pretty basic now (no way as good as the older ones, with audssey) so maybe in the future buy a antimode?

For smaller rooms, on side/rears I would recoommend bipoles. For larger rooms then try monopole side/rears.
For subwoofer, in smaller room for music and movies, a sealed box. In a large room, for movies go for a ported box. Or a decent sealed box.

Don't discount secondhand, you may be able to get speakers you'd neither think you could afford. I bought these for not much more than your budget, and years ago I'd neither have dreamed I would own these monsters.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/141880168246-0-1/s-l1000.jpg

People like myself upgraded over the years so will have spare speakers, I sold some B&W 601 & CC6, that is sort of budget I'd be looking at- not sure if they would match Onkyo though (more suit Yamaha) If Onkyos are a bit bright then I'd get speakers that go towards neautral

 

[MrRockliffe]

Don't discount secondhand, you may be able to get speakers you'd neither think you could afford. I bought these for not much more than your budget, and years ago I'd neither have dreamed I would own these monsters.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/141880168246-0-1/s-l1000.jpg

People like myself upgraded over the years so will have spare speakers, I sold some B&W 601 & CC6, that is sort of budget I'd be looking at- not sure if they would match Onkyo though (more suit Yamaha) If Onkyos are a bit bright then I'd get speakers that go towards neautral

This is a really good point.

Second hand equipment can offer really good value for money.

KEF have their Q200 (I think it was) on clearance as well at the moment. I'm not sure how it would match up to your speakers, but it's quite good value for money.

 

[hornetstinger]

I've had Kef in the past (and still own a pair)

Q15 standmount, Q55 floorstander, Q75 floorstander
Q95C center
Reference Model 100, Model 200 centers
Kef Reference Model 2.2 also have access to Model 1.1's

The Q95C was garbage
Model Reference 200 is superb. It outclasses the Q200.
Kef Reference very nice speakers.

Kef Q range are ok, but I wouldn't recommend spending too much on them, ie, no way would I buy the Q75 at the full RRP. The design of the Q200 is better than the usual 2 driver, I think centers do need to be physically big and multi-driver.

The ones in the link above are Celestion A3. They are superb- they are high end speakers.

 

[lucid]

If you're restricted to new only, and it has to be Richers, then Monitor Audio Bronze Centre + a pair of Bronze 2 wouldn't be a bad place to start. You've also got Dali - I've heard Zensor 3 and I'd put them on a part with the Bronzes. I haven't heard the Zensor 1 or the Pico Vokal or Spektor products. There's a lot of love for Q Acoustics.

Where budget is tight I'd consider second-hand, and lots of other FMs here share the same view. The thing is that good speaker are good speakers, whether they're brand new or 25 years old.

Monitor Audio Bronze have been around in various forms for at least 15 years, I think. I'm more familiar with the BX series which were the 2nd generation products rather than the earlier BR range, so when I see something like this complete BX2 AV12 kit going for £400-£500 on eBay then I know someone would have got a bargain if they'd have bid on it. Link and scroll down. The great thing about older gear too is there are loads of reviews and plenty of history on the product. That makes it easy to spot any recurring issues. As with most things though, used is right for some people and not for others.

Stepping up from the Tannoy mini-satellites to bookshelf/standmount sized speakers should give a noticeable improvement in scale and depth and just the ability to hear more of what's going on. If I said detail there would be a lot of people assume that that meant sharper treble, but that's not it at all. It's layers in the sound that lesser speakers can't reveal. It's watching a favourite film through some new audio gear and hearing stuff that you never noticed before. The little Tannoys are great speakers within their price and size range. But they aren't the final word in audio fidelity, nor are the Brozes or the Dalis or Q Acoustics. They're simply a better tool for getting in to the sound.

Re the crossover level. 140Hz is the -3dB point for those Tannoys. That's to say, its the point where the sound is already tailing off, and it's half as loud as the octave above. If your CA sub can do it then the sub crossover point should be set at 150Hz. In any event you should be running the sub crossover set to maximum or the AV setting if it has it - then letting the AV receiver's bass management handle the integration. At the moment all 5 satellites are 140Hz @ -3dB, but when you change to larger speakers you'll have a variety of different crossover points - say 150Hz for the TFX as rears, 80Hz for the centre and maybe 60Hz for the fronts all depending on the speaker specs. The bass management will handle all that.

As for paying for a stet-up service, at this stage I'd say no. Get the distance measurements done and if there's scope to move the speakers so all three are on an arc with a constant radius then definitely do that. Run the auto set-up and see if the amp thinks the speakers are at different distances to what you've measured. That could indicate lots of reflections from hard wall surfaces. Just like the echoes in a railway station stop you hearing the announcements clearly, your speakers give you sound directly and some that bounces off the side walls, floor and ceiling. Those sounds arrive later than the direct speaker sound and so they make it harder to tell what's going on.

Paying for a set-up service makes sense if there's scope to move the speakers to their optimum points and adjust the seating so that bass nulls and peaks are minimised. That sort of thing is possible in a dedicated room, but it's trickier to do that and maintain domestic harmony in a living room. Let the sound calibration mic do its work.

 

[hornetstinger]

Lucid, AVR setup does far more than distance (aka delay) They perform room EQ, so if you move a speaker, or the sub, that will effect speaker frequency response, so you have to do the room EQ setup. So that performs a wide range spectrum burst, and a single tone.

Also speaker levels are simply not distance, it also takes into account delay. For example if a anti-mode has 200ms delay, and your sub plate amp has another 200ms delay, and it's 10 foot away, but you only enter 10 foot distance, then that is incorrect. The auto setup calculates the time it arrives so in total it'll add the sum of 200ms + 200 ms + 10' sound travels

Onkyos Accu-EQ is a step down from Audssy, but it should do some kind of room EQ.

 

[danny77]

Thanks for the replies, loads to read through , the auto set up got the distance on all speakers was ranged from spot on for two of them and within 40 to 100mm on the others, I think the sub was maybe a little further out . i'll measure the room layout and knock a basic diagram up .

ps whats antimode? I know that onkyo calibration went downhill after changing from audyssey like I said earlier some people love it or hate it , i'm not sure if its worked wonders or the fact changing amp has made a massive change to the sound coming from the tannoys .

 

[hornetstinger]

It's a add on box, a parametic EQ for the subwoofer (and only for the sub)

"I think the sub was maybe a little further out"

That's normal as there will be a small delay in the sub plate amp, so the AVR will detect the total delay and compensate. Don't manually change distance.

 

[hornetstinger]

"made a massive change to the sound coming from the"

Try it with and without the EQ, on Yamaha you can disable YPAO by using pure direct

 

[danny77]

"made a massive change to the sound coming from the"

Try it with and without the EQ, on Yamaha you can disable YPAO by using pure direct

There's a button on front panel "pure audio" which I assume is the same, it turns off any processing and sounds worse, dialogue harder to make out etc

 

[lucid]

Lucid, AVR setup does far more than distance (aka delay) They perform room EQ, so if you move a speaker, or the sub, that will effect speaker frequency response, so you have to do the room EQ setup. So that performs a wide range spectrum burst, and a single tone.

Also speaker levels are simply not distance, it also takes into account delay. For example if a anti-mode has 200ms delay, and your sub plate amp has another 200ms delay, and it's 10 foot away, but you only enter 10 foot distance, then that is incorrect. The auto setup calculates the time it arrives so in total it'll add the sum of 200ms + 200 ms + 10' sound travels

Sigh..... again with the irrelevant info.

Have another read, you won't find I said that an AVR does only distance. Nor did I suggest moving the speakers without re-running the set-up procedure. Yes, I'm quite well aware that AV receivers do room EQ. You do realise I have a business selling, installing, maintaining and calibrating home and commercial AV gear, right? Do you somehow believe that I could be in the business for 30+ years and not be aware of what this gear does?

You're looking more and more desperate to try and score some kind of point, and frankly it's getting embarrassing, not to mention distracting for the affected OPs.

You made some good points about used gear, and about Onkyo's EQ quality not being as good as previous Audyssey-equipped models, and about bipole rears. Why spoil all that good work with a clumsy attempt at point scoring in which it's clear you either haven't read- or understood properly the post you're attacking? It makes you look childish. You're better than this. Just relax.

We're on the same page re bipoles. I'm a big fan of these in smaller rooms with a 5.1 set-up compared to monoploes (A.K.A. conventional speakers). If the primary role is movies, TV and gaming, and there's no plan to go ATMOS / DTS-X, then bipoles get my vote too.

 

[lucid]

i'm not sure if its worked wonders or the fact changing amp has made a massive change to the sound coming from the tannoys .

There's a lot more power on tap from the Onkyo compared to your previous Pioneer. That can be a big factor with some speakers.

I have some old but very good B&W reference speakers. They're great speakers but very power hungry. With the average 30W Hi-Fi amp they sound lifeless. Given some real juice though they come alive.

Driven in stereo, your Onkyo outputs 100W per channel measured at 20Hz-20kHz in to 8 Ohms @ <0.1% THD. How the power is measured; the frequency, the number of channels, the impedance of the speaker, the distortion all makes a huge difference to the final figure. It's easy to get distracted by the wattage numbers, but without knowing the way it was measured then any wattage number is meaningless. It's not a level playing field.

Measured in the same way as the Onkyo, your Pioneer puts out 50W per channel. You're hearing the extra control that another 50W per channel (stereo) makes along with any improvements in the circuit design and processing used.


You commented that the sound wasn't as clear in Pure Direct mode. That's because it's coming from just the left and right speakers. Losing the centre channel, surrounds and sub makes the sound quieter, but also you're hearing the effect of the alcoves on the left and right speakers. If the room was more neutral then - aside from the volume and the lack of bass - there wouldn't be quite such a dramatic difference in sound.

 

[danny77]

Here's a quick layout of the room I did in paint , its not great but shows the basics if that is of any relevance, floor standers are a no go as no room. The centre sits on fireplace which is 230mm deep and 240mm below the tv.
The room from bottom wall at the bottom of image where main seating position is to the chimney breast is 3400mm, the width across room is also 3400mm the alcoves either side of chimney breast are 950 wide and 370mm deep. are the front left and right ok in the corners as shown in image or would it be better bringing them level with the chimney breast so then all 4 sats would be in the corner of a 3400mm x 3400mm square .

https://imgur.com/a/ARsg8

 

[hornetstinger]

Power output is for "dynamic" power which typically means short burst. Since your model isn't tested in Sound & Vision, and specs are a bit vague, all you can do is pick another Onkyo from same era and range and it'll be somewhere around that

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/onkyo-tx-rz610-av-receiver-review-test-bench

75W with all 7 channels driven is very good. If that was a Yamaha, it'll be about half of that.

You do realise I have a business selling, installing, maintaining and calibrating home and commercial AV gear, right? Do you somehow believe that I could be in the business for 30+ years and not be aware of what this gear does?

Well you gave out totally incorrect advice regarding speaker size, connecting subwoofer in a AV system, and I said I wouldn't allow you to put my system together, lol.

 

[hornetstinger]

Here's a quick layout of the room I did in paint , its not great but shows the basics if that is of any relevance, floor standers are a no go as no room. The centre sits on fireplace which is 230mm deep and 240mm below the tv.
The room from bottom wall at the bottom of image where main seating position is to the chimney breast is 3400mm, the width across room is also 3400mm the alcoves either side of chimney breast are 950 wide and 370mm deep. are the front left and right ok in the corners as shown in image or would it be better bringing them level with the chimney breast so then all 4 sats would be in the corner of a 3400mm x 3400mm square .

https://imgur.com/a/ARsg8

You really don't want a TV above the fireplace- means you have to look up, cause neck strain etc.

I'd definetly go for bipole speakers for the surrounds, since you're literally right next to them. These will cost more than regular speakers.

I use two sets of bipoles myself.

 

[danny77]

Tv has been mounted there for years mate never been an issue bottom of tv is only 1150mm from floor so not as high as some others I've seen. How do bipoles work and what do they do different from standard speakers ?. I'm really unsure what to do to be honest originally I was looking at spending £300 to £400 on the front 3 speakers now thinking it may be best spending that just on the centre and upgrading the front L&R later when funds allow and then further along maybe upgrade the 2 rears

Edit . Just read up on bipoles and from what I can gather there better for the rear / surrounds , for general movie /tv they wont make much of a difference would they,