Bakers refuse Gay wedding cake - update: Supreme Court rules in favour of Bakers

[dowie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581

A Christian-run bakery that refused a customer's request to make a cake with a slogan supporting gay marriage could face a discrimination case in court.

Ashers Baking Company declined an order from a gay rights activist, asking for cake featuring the Sesame Street puppets, Bert and Ernie.

The customer also wanted the cake to feature the logo of a Belfast-based campaign group called "Queerspace".

The County Antrim firm could face legal action from the Equality Commission.

I'm normally pro gay rights but I think this is a bit of a knee jerk reaction from the equality commission... they've seen that some gay people have been refused something and have instantly gone on the attack.

this comment from a gay rights campaigner also misses the point IMO:

"If you are a company that is trading out there in the market place and someone comes to you, you can't pick and choose whether or not to fulfil that order based on their sexual orientation," Mr Boyd added.

The fact is they haven't refused to serve the customers on the basis of their sexual orientation - in fact I'm sure the gay couple can go back an order any number of baked goods from that shop without discrimination. What they've refused to do is to print a political message they don't agree with on a cake:

Ashers Baking Company declined an order from a gay rights activist, asking for cake featuring the Sesame Street puppets, Bert and Ernie.

The customer also wanted the cake to feature the logo of a Belfast-based campaign group called "Queerspace".

This is massively different to say a B&B refusing to let a gay couple stay and isn't simply refusing to serve gay people.

In fact gay marriage isn't even legal in Northern Ireland - so it seems odd that a baker can be taken to task by the equality commission for refusing to print a cake supporting an isssue that the Northern Ireland government itself actively discriminates on.

Would the equality commission step in if a catholic baker refused to print a wedding cake for a protestant orangeman complete with orange order symbols and a union flag? How about a Romanian baker being asked to print a cake for UKIP? White baker being asked to print a cake for the nation of Islam?

While I think there does need to be protection for minority groups being refused service in general I don't think independent business should be refused the right to turn down business when it directly involves supporting political/moral positions they're opposed to.

 

[dowie]

OP, while you *sort* of make a point, I think your point is slightly skewed. Gay rights are not intrinsically a 'political message'. They have taken the form of an activist message who are promoting equality; I don't believe these are the same thing.
The bakers are refusing to fulfill the order based on the activists message, which is of gay rights and gay equality; ergo, they are refusing to fulfill the order based on discrimination of that equality.

No its still a political message - gay marriage isn't even legal in Northern Ireland, believe it or not some gay people don't actually support gay marriage. Campaigning for gay marriage is a political position... it might be something that the majority of gay people want but it doesn't define gay people as a group. Refusing to endorse/support gay marriage isn't any different to refusing to endorse/support Scottish Independence... if the majority of Scots support Independence then you could perhaps put a similar argument forward that a refusal to bake a pro Independent Scotland cake is discrimination against Scottish people and Scottish rights..... but in the end its actually just a refusal to be drawn into supporting a political position you don't agree with.

 

[dowie]

I thought the law was fairly clear in that you can't discriminate on the basis of gender, sexuality, religion or race if you run a business?

I don't think its clear that they have done that though.

Could I go into a Muslim bakers and ask for a cake with a picture of Jesus on it for my friend's kid's Christening service? Or would their own faith which prohibits drawing a likeness of a prophet not be quite a reasonable reason to refuse the request?

That's all these Christian Bakers are doing - they're refusing to produce a specific product that goes against their own beliefs - they're not refusing to serve customers in general on the basis of their sexuality.

 

[dowie]

It seems fairly clear. The "we are against political messages" line seems to be tagged on after the letter from the Equality Commission.

Do you think the Muslim baker scenario would also warrant an Equality commission letter then? Could a Muslim be forced to put a picture of a prophet (Jesus) on a cake if asked to by a Christian who'd like a Jesus cake?

 

[dowie]

Surely they can't bake a cake with Bert and Ernie because of trademark reasons anyway?

true... but that isn't the main issue here (could have been a possible and rather easy defence if they hadn't already opened their mouths about being opposed to gay marriage)

 

[dowie]

Give it a go and find out.

its a hypothetical question directed at you

 

[dowie]

Jesus is a prophet in Islam too.

Yes, that's the whole point of that scenario.

 

[dowie]

That would be fine as a muslim chooses their religion, as does a christian.

but the law prohibits discrimination on the basis of religion just as it does on the basis of sexuality.... if people are going to argue that discrimination includes refusal to print certain things they don't believe in doing rather than simply refusing to serve people at all based on their sexuality then I'd be interested in their position on that scenario too

 

[dowie]

That definition if discrimination is substantially outdated, and you know it. It is entirely acceptable to question decisions people make in their lives. Sexuality, race, and gender are not choices. Religion is.

Its not outdated at all - its still covered by law... Try putting a sign up on a shop saying 'No Christians' or 'No Muslims' and you'd soon be in trouble.

Did you make a choice not to be gay? No, I didn't think so.

So what? They've not refused to serve gay people, they've refused to print a cake supporting gay marriage complete with political group's logo on it.

I don't see this as particularly different to the other examples - the exact same law protects race, religion, gender etc...

 

[dowie]

What people need to remember is that a business is not a person, you are allowed to not bake cakes for gay people if that's how you feel in a private matter. Once you start a business however you agree to comply with the equality laws of the land - it's that simple.

and again they've not refused to bake cakes for gay people so it isn't that simple.... they've refused to bake a cake with a particular moral/political message they're opposed to

Should a Pakistani baker be able to refuse a BNP cake, a Romanian Baker a UKIP cake? A N.I. Catholic Baker an Orange Order cake?

 

[dowie]

What's the message about?.

Gay equality isn't a political stance, it's an ethical obligation to a civilised society.

don't get me wrong - I support gay marriage... however it is still a political stance

Because equal rights for gay people cake is the same as a "we hate brown people" BNP cake.

Its a political group.... the bakers in the main story refused to print a cake supporting a moral/political view and containing a logo of a campaign group they don't agree with - the principle is the same.... and no the BNP's published policies say nothing about hating brown people - they're a legitimate political group whether we like it or not... my point is that someone shouldn't be forced to support political/moral views they're opposed to. This is rather different to simply refusing to serve someone at all on the basis of their sexuality etc...

 

[dowie]

History will look back at people in the article the same way it does for those who fought against equal rights for women & black people - as uncivilised barbaric simpletons.

maybe they will... but I'd still see a distinction even today between someone refusing to serve all women, all black people and someone refusing to print a feminist logo on a cake or say a picture of Malcolm X

 

[dowie]

The first two can refuse as political parties are not covered by discrimination laws.

and that's my point in this instance.... they're refusing to support a moral position and a political/campaign group.... They're not refusing business on the basis of the customer being gay but the message that customer wants on the cake.

 

[dowie]

I fundamentally disagree that equal rights campaigning is a political argument. (But I can see some may think that way & it has some mileage)

Political action may be one of the tool used to achieve it, but it's a social, ethical & moral issue (equality). By that stance would it be acceptable to refuse a cake inscribed with "Equal rights for black people"?.

Would a campaign for multiple marriage, polygamy/polyandry and any other combination also be an equal rights issue or a political one?

As for equal rights for black people - that is somewhat broader and lacks the campaign group logo... but in principle you ought to be able to turn down any message you don't agree with. I doubt m(any) bakers would refuse such a cake... you could perhaps however find someone with an argument against say a 'black power' cake.

 

[dowie]

How could it possibly be political?. (as in, what aspects are related to politics)

the same way that gay marriage is a political issue

yes it is also an issue of equality

 

[dowie]

The difference is that this isn't a protected position unlike homosexuality.

The original refusal was due to it being for a gay wedding rather than the political message, the political message refusal seems to be inspired by their lawyer!

so what... they're not refusing to serve homosexuals they're refusing to create something which they're opposed to.... if we go down that line then there are plenty of other silly examples such as the Muslim baker Jesus cake one which ostensibly should be covered by the same law.

 

[dowie]

A heterosexual could order a wedding cake, a homosexual could not order a wedding cake. That is fundamentally discriminating due to sexuality. Much like I couldn't run a guest house and only let black guests book the attic room.

A heterosexual could order a wedding cake for their gay friend's wedding with the same message on and be refused service.

A homosexual could order a wedding cake sans message and be provided with one.

The message on the cake is the issue not the sexuality of the person placing the order. The issue is refusing to supply a cake with a message they disagree with on it... I think they have that right.

 

[dowie]

Let's take this a step further;

In a world were Christians are barred from marriage, a Christian couple enter a Muslim-run bakers and request a cake with Miss Piggy And Kermit and a "Christian Marriage" message with a Christian lobby group's logo. Would it be acceptable for the baker to refuse?

of course


(pigs are haram)

 

[dowie]

So as long as I let black guests book the other rooms for white people and let white guests book the attic for black people I am not discriminating?

no you'd be discriminating

again they're not refusing to serve gay people they're refusing to create something with a specific message on it they don't agree with

see the Muslim baker Jesus cake example again... is the Muslim baker discriminating against the Christian customer if he refuses the order? Is he discriminating against his Muslim employee if he accepts the order and makes his employee create a cake with an image of a prophet on it - something that goes against his employee's beliefs....

 

[dowie]

This was effectively your argument as to why the bakers weren't discriminating though?

nope... the bakers refused to write a particular message on a cake... they refuse to write other messages on cakes... they ought to have some discretion in that area. They didn't however decide to only serve second class cakes to gay people...