Bakers refuse Gay wedding cake - update: Supreme Court rules in favour of Bakers

[dowie]

Again, the message excuse seems to be a relatively new reason for refusal, arrived at after consultation with a lawyer. Effectively they are offering a lesser service to gay people, I.e. Not wedding cakes.

not they're not - they haven't refused to sell a wedding cake, they've refused to sell a wedding cake with a particular message on it

there is no indication that the customer in question couldn't have otherwise gone into the store and been able to buy any cake anyone else could buy

 

[dowie]

Missed the first part of my post or just ignoring it?

its just speculation and is unsubstantiated - maybe the political group logo is being hyped up but the overall objection was to the design/message on the cake - there isn't anything to suggest they wouldn't serve gay people at all

So it's not discrimination if you let gays only order heterosexual wedding cakes?

is a cake without a message on it automatically heterosexual?

 

[dowie]

Pigs aren't haram.

they are as far as food is concerned

 

[dowie]

The bride and groom figures tend to be a giveaway...

Again you are effectively saying gays cannot get the same service as heterosexuals as heterosexuals can have gender specific messages but homosexuals can't. But somehow that isn't discriminating?

I'm saying that they're not refusing to serve gay people they're refusing to write a particular message, create something that they're opposed to morally/politically. Their rights have to be balanced up against the rights of the consumer - they've not refused to make a cake for the customer they've refused to make a cake with a particular design/message.

I'll refer back to me Muslim baker, Jesus cake example...

How about a white baker making a 'black power' cake... for a black customer celebrating the election of say the first black mayor of London... the baker is comfortable with the reason for the cake etc... creates it and puts it in his shop. A white customer comes in and asks for a 'white power' cake... the white baker isn't comfortable with associating with that message even if meant in an innocent way, doesn't want to be seen making such a cake in case he is thought of as a racist... so refuses to make a 'white power' cake for a white customer. The white customer can buy any cake from the store he simply can't have the cake with a 'white power' message on it as the baker isn't comfortable with it. I think the baker should have every right to refuse such a request... I don't think an independent business owner should be forced to create some custom product they're uncomfortable with even if they're happy to create a similar customer product.

 

[dowie]

Eating pigs is, but pigs themselves aren't, so a cake with a picture of Miss Piggy on it wouldn't be, as you're not eating a pig.

I know - I'm just joking.... I'm fully aware that a Muslim could create and or eat a cake with a picture of miss piggy on should he/she chose to...

 

[dowie]

could it be copyright issues with bert and ernie and nothing to do with being gay.

It could have... but it isn't as they've stated what the issue was... the copyright issue would have been an easy get out for them if they'd had legal advice before refusing the request

and they didn't actually refuse the request straight away but considered it then contacted the customer with their reasons

 

[dowie]

You draw the line with the law. I'm sure a swastika would be seen as a symbol of racial hatred/inciting hatred so as long as the baker consults the police then there is no problem.

Its also a Buddhist symbol... the baker has hot cross buns in the window and has just made a cake with the Star of David on it for a Jewish person... now a Bhuddist comes in asking for a cake with one of his religious symbols on it....

A bakery is there to serve the whole community and should make any cake they are asked to. If there is a valid legal reason why they can't (copyright, discrimination law, inciting hatred) that is fine and they can refuse on the basis they would be breaking the law if they fulfilled the order.

they're a business taking custom orders... they ought to be able to refuse any commission they want. This isn't the same as refusing to serve gay people in general.

 

[dowie]

It is if those reasons are based on race, sex, religion, disability, age or sexual orientation.

Are you in favour of scrapping employment legislation on the basis that a business should be free to hire/fire whoever they want?

OK so here is a hypothetical religion conflict as posted earlier

Muslim owned bakery employs a Muslim guy to do the cake designs... has some cakes in the window with Islamic symbols etc... Christian comes in asking for a cake with Jesus on the cross on it. The bakery could refuse the work as they don't want to create an image of a prophet... but then they're supposedly discriminating no? The bakery could ask their Muslim employee to create the cake, asking him to create an image of a prophet, but are they not then breaching his religious freedoms by requesting he creates the cake?

Frankly if you're taking on custom work you ought to be able to refuse to take on work which conflicts with your personal views.... whether this is refusing to print UKIP fliers or refusing to create a cake with a message/view on it you can't agree with.

I think refusing to endorse a view, campaign, belief, stance etc... put forth by a particular group is different to simply refusing to sell products or provide any work to people from that group.

 

[dowie]

I disagree. All businesses must ensure they do not blacklist who they do business with based on outlawed discriminatory reasons.

You can't say "we'll serve gay people, but offer them less choice than heterosexual people".

They're simply refusing to create a custom product they're not comfortable with. People can still buy products from them, chose whatever they want... they just can't ask them to make something which is offensive or which conflicts with their personal beliefs.

A posh London interior design firm is asked by a Jewish client to source some furniture from Israel as he'd like some mementos form the 'homeland' in his new penthouse - the company has taken an ethical stance against buying Israeli products as a result of the treatment of the Palestinians... they refuse the customer's request on that basis.... Is the firm then offering Jewish people less choice - the Egyptian client they served the week before got some lovely Egyptian furniture from his home country fitted in his penthouse....

 

[dowie]

Both of which are ultimately quite petty but I'll defend someone's right to personal belief as long as they don't try to impose that personal belief on someone else.

don't get me wrong - I support gay marriage... I also don't believe in an independent business being forced to create something which it doesn't agree with regardless of how petty it is. I'm sure they've turned down other work before which they deemed offensive or simply bad taste.

 

[dowie]

I'm merely stating a fact that nothing and nobody forces you or me to be either gay or heterosexual and that this might be an argument for another time.

Attraction isn't a choice... look at a picture of Susan Boyle for example* can you, through choice, simply decide to find her desirable?

I don't think gay people choose to be attracted to other guys... they can perhaps chose to not act on it (but then they're simply in denial/in the closet).... but sexuality isn't really a choice


*I'm assuming, of course, that you're heterosexual and not attracted to her

 

[dowie]

My point still stands. As far as I'm concerned, a business should not pick and choose what work to complete based on their personal beliefs. I believe if you decide to set yourself up as a company, you forfeit your own personal beliefs.

If you're a sole trader on the other hand, you're just a bloke baking a cake so you can do what you want.

So we then go back to an Asian printers being asked to produce BNP fliers etc....


Businesses have every right to turn down custom work they don't support/believe in. They're turning down the work being proposed not the customer.

 

[dowie]

I'm not concerned about the specifics, simply that a business should not make decisions based on personal beliefs.

I feel the same about staff in supermarkets refusing to sell meat or alcohol. As far as I am concerned, that person should not be allowed to refuse service based on their beliefs.

But that relates to individual employees - it's still up to a business whether to supply alcohol or halal/non halal meat etc...

 

[dowie]

Turning down the proposed work based on their personal beliefs.

I don't think there will ever be a right or wrong answer.

I do

I think the right answer is that the creative, self employed person gets to pick and chose whatever custom jobs he/she likes. As long as he/she isn't simply turning down work based on who the customer is but rather on the basis of what the work requires creating then it's up to them. You can't force an artist, photographer, journalist, author or even baker to create something they don't agree with.

They haven't refused to sell them a cake they've refused to create a very specific cake containing a jokey cartoon and a political message.

 

[dowie]

They wouldn't get away with it if they refused to decorate a cake with an African American image/logo so I don't see why this is any different!! It's still discrimination based on personal beliefs, if you want to be a bigot in your own time go ahead be an idiot!
However when you run a service open to the public then their should be certain anti-discrimination laws/rules to keep things fair and civilized, if it bothers you that much don't run a service that falls into this category.

Its not clear yet if they would or wouldn't - but again there is a difference between discriminating against the people you chose to serve and discriminating between what sort of things you chose to produce. Anti discrimination legislation exists to prevent people from being discriminated against not products - I'd hope it doesn't apply in this case as freedom of speech/freedom of expression ought to be protected but obviously the product is linked to a particular group of people protected under the legislation so maybe it does.

 

[dowie]

Is Gay marriage in some way equivalent to supporting the BNP? I am struggling to find any objective harm in gay marriage, whilst there is plenty of harm in the policies of the BNP. Not to mention that the law doesn't protect political beliefs, no matter how dearly you hold them.

Well that's the whole point - it was a political cake... they didn't refuse to make a cake for gay people they refused to make a cake with a specific message on it.

Creative people should have a right to refuse to create work they don't agree with regardless of their personal reasons. They have the right to freedom of speech/freedom of expression - you shouldn't be able to dictate to them what they should write if they don't want to.

You've got no more right to force them to create this cake than you do to try and force a London based Arab publication to run pro Israeli advertising.

 

[dowie]

The problem starts when you begin to run a business and want to discriminate against protected groups. They still have the right to freedom of expression and freedom of speech, they just don't have the right to refuse service because of it.

They haven't discriminated against a particular group per say - they've declined to create a message on a cake relating to an issue supported by a large number of that group.

It is a freedom of speech issue IMO - its not too different to say a London based Arab publication refusing to run a pro-Israeli advert in their publication. Would that be anti-semetic/racist? I wouldn't say it is as its the message/advert they're disagreeing with not simply a refusal to run an advert because the person requesting it happens to be Jewish.

 

[dowie]

And if all the local bakeries had the same policy?

they they'll have to go without that campaign message....

Say I want to create an advert with the following:

'this is Mohammed - look you can draw him, it doesn't matter'

and all local companies that own billboards within East London refuse to carry it... well I guess I'll have to go without

 

[dowie]

No it wouldn't be, unless they said "We aint running it because you are Jewish".

I do find it odd though that most people supporting the bakers keep trying to equate supporting gay marriage with being forced to "support" bad things.

Its nothing to do with good or bad... its about the freedom to express your own views and not being forced to express something you don't believe with. Its a protected right in the USA and is supposed to be afforded some protection here too.

And again they've not refused the cake because the customers were gay they've refused the cake because of the proposed message on the cake - the Israeli advert/Arab newspaper analogy still stands.

 

[dowie]

So we get back to "No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs". Yay!

not at all - again they've not refused to serve gay people they've refused to endorse/create a political cake supporting an issue lots of gay people support