Bakers refuse Gay wedding cake - update: Supreme Court rules in favour of Bakers

As mentioned earlier, I'll need to return to this question when I have more time.



But to pick up the low hanging fruit.

I do not object to the concept of marriage, and where there is domestic abuse that seems like a very good reason for a divorce.

What I object to is people using divorce to enable their own selfishness; people entering into marriages without any sense of responsibility or concept of what a marriage is.

This is all a product of the rampant consumerism and individualism.

Why do you think you have the right to judge whether reasons for divorce are good enough or not?

If people want a divorce, give it to them, if they want to be married, let them, it's something between the two people and outside people (like you) should have no say in what they do so long as both parties are of sound mind.
 
orphans be ****ed in your head then?

actually its the ****ing that does that, hence why women tend to have more sex at the star of the relationship because it builds a strong bond in the males brain through the chemicals released then it tapers off as its unnecessary as the bond is formed.

given that gay men typically have higher sex drives and will keep up the shagging for longer they should really have a stronger bond than heteros after an extended length of time.

also im curious where bisexuals fall in your system of being good family men and women.

Well by their very definition orphans are missing their biological parents. I'm not sure if that means they're "the word you used".

And yes, it IS the sex that creates the initial part of that bond, it's the pair bond. Gays can't get that because they can't pair (breed) with each other.

And please don't you start misquoting me, I didn't say anything about "good family men".

So by your logic, heterosexuals who adopt are doing the child they adopt a disservice on the grounds that they cannot provide the 'profound and unconditional love' which in your opinion only comes by having your own child. Can you not see how facile that view is ? :confused:

I didn't say that. They won't have the same relationship though, will they, as in fact, adoption is not the same as breeding?

You're inferring a lot here. We can now create the equivalent of sperm (not quite sure how this works), which uses both men's genes. In any case, a gay man can impregnate a woman, making a natural bond between parent and child. If you were to combine their sperm for IVF, you wouldn't know who fathered the child anyway.

What's to say that any parent is bonded to their child anyway! There is absolutely no guarantee of that whatsoever.

All you people seem to be missing where I said "IN MY EXPERIENCE" and "I THINK".

If YOU have experienced anything differently please let me know. You seem to be arguing opinions. Second hand ones at that.

I love my children more than anyone. That's my proof of that bond.

I love their mother more than any other woman, though I've had longer relationships. That's my proof of that bond.

When you have something other than "who's to say" or "what if", please restate your case.
 
I'm not in agreement. To a religious person God is more important than being able to freely engage in male on male sex. It might be more important to you, but we're all different. I wouldn't expect a baker, religious or otherwise, but especially if they were religious, to bake a cake with a great big facial cumshot photograph on it and then complain about it when they refused. Relative common sense has got to take over somewhere.

The ENOROMOUS difference being that religion is a choice, whereas sexuality isn't. It doesn't matter what's important, it matters that people exist who are being discriminated against for being nothing more than themselves.
 
All you people seem to be missing where I said "IN MY EXPERIENCE" and "I THINK".

If YOU have experienced anything differently please let me know. You seem to be arguing opinions. Second hand ones at that.

I love my children more than anyone. That's my proof of that bond.

I love their mother more than any other woman, though I've had longer relationships. That's my proof of that bond.

When you have something other than "who's to say" or "what if", please restate your case.

This is a discussion, is it not? You made some definitive statements about biological children, which gay people can have too.
 
Well by their very definition orphans are missing their biological parents. I'm not sure if that means they're "the word you used".

And yes, it IS the sex that creates the initial part of that bond, it's the pair bond. Gays can't get that because they can't pair (breed) with each other.

And please don't you start misquoting me, I didn't say anything about "good family men".



I didn't say that. They won't have the same relationship though, will they, as in fact, adoption is not the same as breeding?



All you people seem to be missing where I said "IN MY EXPERIENCE" and "I THINK".

If YOU have experienced anything differently please let me know. You seem to be arguing opinions. Second hand ones at that.

I love my children more than anyone. That's my proof of that bond.

I love their mother more than any other woman, though I've had longer relationships. That's my proof of that bond.

When you have something other than "who's to say" or "what if", please restate your case.

Would you be unhappy if one of your children told you they were homosexual?
 
And yes, it IS the sex that creates the initial part of that bond, it's the pair bond. Gays can't get that because they can't pair (breed) with each other.


yeah they can, trust me gay guys are seeeeriously good at the pair bond forming.

and the sex to be fair, seems like 50 percent of the gays have no gag reflex compared to like 5 percent of the girls.


interestingly though from your reasoning a sterile couple or a man who's had a vasectomy cannot have it either which i think most would disagree with.


honestly i can say the bond formed wither either men nor women is pretty much the same.
 
All you people seem to be missing where I said "IN MY EXPERIENCE" and "I THINK".

If YOU have experienced anything differently please let me know. You seem to be arguing opinions. Second hand ones at that.

I have a fair amount of experience of having to teach children whose biological families are far from an ideal experience, where love is mostly missing and where biological bonds are meaningless.

Love and commitment seem to be more important than any direct biological bond.

I love my children more than anyone. That's my proof of that bond.

I love their mother more than any other woman, though I've had longer relationships. That's my proof of that bond.

But the number of children and spouses abused by family members would suggest that your experience of that bond is not universal. We know it is not universal.

When you have something other than "who's to say" or "what if", please restate your case.

I have known adopted families that have shown as much love as biological families and biological families that have shown considerable hate.
 
I disagree it's the endorsement of an illegal act, it's a statement in support of changing the law to enable it be a legal act (there is a subtle distinction).

However, distinction or not, it can still be construed as being associated with the act itself...and that is important in any companies ability to decide how it conducts and choices its contracts and the obligation therein.

I could support the legalisation of cannabis, but be firmly against the smoking of it in it's currently illegal state - by supporting the legalisation I'm in no way supporting an illegal act. I'm supporting changes to make it legal.

You also retain the right to not associate yourself or your actions with that issue, it could also be construed that by openly supporting the rights therein you are also supporting the act itself...regardless of the actual truth of your position and this could potentially damage your business or reputation and you should be able to protect yourself from such by retaining the right to not openly or by association be seen to support (or indeed not support) any given position that may be or be associated with an illegal act.

Which is all fine, assuming they do not break our equality laws.

Unless they refused them in the basis that they were Gay, and there is nothing to suggest they did, then they are not breaking any equality laws...Same Sex Marriage is illegal in the region in which they trade.

Just because it's their ethos to discriminate against same sex marriage related products it in no way immunised them from criticism & legal challenge - essentially their business 'ethos' may turn out to be illegal if they lose the case.

Anyone can criticise them, however the legal challenge is spurious as all they have done is refuse a contract that would have had a controversial impact on their business and could associate them with a currently illegal act or the support of therein. If the law changes then they would be required to change their policy accordingly, but until that happens you should not be able to force a company to support, even by association, anything that is currently illegal where they trade.

As above, I disagree that endorsing a challenge to existing laws is the same thing as endorsing an illegal act.

It can be construed as such and the association of the act with the challenge to the act is clear and therefore a company should be free to decide for itself whether it will associate itself with either the act or the challenge to legalise (or indeed criminalise) the act.

Additionally, the current legal status is essentially a blip - once Northern Ireland catches up with the rest of the developing world in which changes are occurring rapidly that defence will be absent.

That make no difference, the law is currently as it is, whether we agree with it or not. We can only deal with what is, not what we think it should be.

Neither was it the defence presented by the owners in question, it was based on religious grounds.

They disagree with Same Sex Marriage, they are free to do so, and currently in Northern Ireland Same Sex Marriage is illegal so it not covered by the discrimination act as such...it would have to be proven they refused to produce the slogan solely on the basis that the people ordering it were homosexuals and that if they were not homosexuals that the order would have been fulfilled. If that cannot be proven that I cannot see how there is a valid case for discrimination based on sexual orientation of the people requesting the service.

Again (apologies for reiterating the same point) - I don't agree that the use of a product or service constitutes endorsement.

It can be associative. We see it all the time in business with companies who uses controversial products being associated with the actual controversy itself. A company should be free to decide whether to associate itself with such, within the currently legal framework of course.

Endorsement is something done by the company in question (like when many companies in the US publicly expressed endorsement towards equal rights for marriage), not by people who use their products.

Association...you are ignoring the very real issue of being associated with any product that you make, even if it is for someone else or is used in another unrelated field.

Nobody is forcing them to endorse, support or oppose - simply to engage in the basis transactional relationship required by the law.

There is no law that requires someone to produce a product that endorses or supports a change in the law. A company is free to choose who it contracts to and as long as they have not broken the law in doing so (and they would have to prove that it was the fact that the buyer was homosexual rather than it simply being the nature of the product itself) and as the slogan was specifically related to Support for Same Sex Marriage and a change in the current law, I cannot see why a company should be forced to supply products that are designed to endorse that if they do not wish to. As I said, if it were a wedding cake (assuming same sex marriage was legal) and they refused that, then that would be legally discriminatory, but the opposition of Same Sex Marriage is not and in Northern Ireland at least Same Sex Marriage is still illegal and I can understand why a company would not want to be associated with such a controversial argument.
 
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I didn't say that. They won't have the same relationship though, will they, as in fact, adoption is not the same as breeding?

Actually you did say just that:

Creating a child with a person makes a bond that is phenomenally powerful in my experience. Not to mention the profound and unconditional love I think it's only possible to have for your own child.

So again, read my reply:

So by your logic, heterosexuals who adopt are doing the child they adopt a disservice on the grounds that they cannot provide the 'profound and unconditional love' which in your opinion only comes by having your own child. Can you not see how facile that view is ? :confused:


Now try and answer my original question honestly.
 
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The ENOROMOUS difference being that religion is a choice, whereas sexuality isn't. It doesn't matter what's important, it matters that people exist who are being discriminated against for being nothing more than themselves.

Not to mention you can think that homosexuality is wrong and that you shouldn't marry someone of the same gender without trying to force that choice upon others. Religious freedom whilst still allowing others sexual freedom.
 
I have known adopted families that have shown as much love as biological families and biological families that have shown considerable hate.

This is true. My boss in a previous job was a gay man who was married (or in a civil partnership to be precise) to another chap. Both were lovely people, had very successful careers and were father to an adopted boy who was quite simply thrown out onto the streets by his drug addicted mother.

I have no doubt that they will teach the child everything he needs to be a confident and successful young man, whereas I see some children with "proper" (not my view) parents and they are destined to fail.
 
This is a discussion, is it not? You made some definitive statements about biological children, which gay people can have too.

Not with each other.

Would you be unhappy if one of your children told you they were homosexual?

Of course.

yeah they can, trust me gay guys are seeeeriously good at the pair bond forming.

and the sex to be fair, seems like 50 percent of the gays have no gag reflex compared to like 5 percent of the girls.


interestingly though from your reasoning a sterile couple or a man whos had a vasectomy cannot have it either which i think most would disagree with.

Incorrect and gross. The nature of a pair bond is that it's a male and a female. You may as well refer to a keyboard as a monitor if you want to just refer to anything as anything else you so desire.

That's your reasoning mate. You can't draw a conclusion from what I've said and then say correctly that it's my reasoning. Do you even understand how reality works?
 
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