Baltimore Bridge

Man of Honour
Joined
5 Jun 2003
Posts
91,343
Location
Falling...
Deflection is common practice usually but I guess at the time the bridge was built wasn't considered or omitted? All the bridges in London are built to deflect.

That said should any large vessel hit the deflection structures a full structural inspection of the bridge will have to take place regardless. Many of the ones in London are now monitored with various sensors to monitor movements, stresses and strains over time.

Prevention however is better than cure. In my opinion 2 things failed here. 1 not having a tug boat for such a large vessel in that area with many obstacles, and lack of protection for the structures.
 
Soldato
Joined
1 Mar 2010
Posts
14,373
Location
5 degrees starboard
Deflection is common practice usually but I guess at the time the bridge was built wasn't considered or omitted? All the bridges in London are built to deflect.

That said should any large vessel hit the deflection structures a full structural inspection of the bridge will have to take place regardless. Many of the ones in London are now monitored with various sensors to monitor movements, stresses and strains over time.

Prevention however is better than cure. In my opinion 2 things failed here. 1 not having a tug boat for such a large vessel in that area with many obstacles, and lack of protection for the structures.

$2-10 million spent since 1980 on updated protection, even $50 million would have been money well spent on such a critical structure. Saving billions of lost revenue and rebuild costs. I don't know if there was a health and safety plan looking at credible incidents but it appears lacking.

Also as was evidenced in the twin towers, American civil engineering codes were particularly poor in considering progressive failure modes. Taking out one pier whilst certainly disabling the structure should not bring about the total collapse of the whole deck spans.

London in the upper reaches is not navigable today for such large vessels but any structure below the QEII bridge should be resistant or protected from direct impacts.
 
Soldato
Joined
12 May 2014
Posts
5,237
Spoiler so you guys don't have to read it.
More subtle strawmanning

Lets see what I said in post 158, where I actually explained what I was talking about.
You need to know the direction of travel because with that you can calculate the angle of impact.

To deflect an object you must stop its velocity it one direction and then accelerate it in another direction.

A low angle of impact (probably less than 15 degrees basically glancing past the barrier) would indeed require far less energy than trying to stop it. However as the angle increases so does the energy requirement and at a certain angle the energy requirement to deflect the ship would exceed the energy just to stop it.

my comment about direction of travel was more so, that those waters are quite open and the exact approach angle of any ship can differ as there is no physical object/barrier that forces them to stay on a certain course.

Lets zoom and enhance on the "harder" bit you seem to be stuck on.

A low angle of impact (probably less than 15 degrees basically glancing past the barrier) would indeed require far less energy than trying to stop it. However as the angle increases so does the energy requirement and at a certain angle the energy requirement to deflect the ship would exceed the energy just to stop it.

Don't worry guys ignore the first sentence where I talk about glancing angles. :rolleyes:

These two sentences align with everything the engineers have said. But somehow I'm wrong :rolleyes:

I think that an crash/accident is an uncontrolled event at the ships could hit a barrier at any angle. But i'm wrong on that count as well. :rolleyes:

All my posts have been on the importance of impact angles on the design of barriers. But that's not important, if you say ships won't hit your barrier at anything other than glancing angles then they magically can't. :rolleyes:

What you've been strawmanning with all your posts is that I apparently inferred that you cannot have a barrier and that they don't exist. This magical post where I supposedly said this, exists in Dowie's head and the head of a few other posters who have fallen under the spell of the Dowie Hole. :rolleyes:

Don't worry just ignore this post exists on the third page. Nothing to see here. :rolleyes:
I think they only thing that could protect the bridge legs is a concrete island surrounding it.


I guess, I didn't account for the Dowie Hole bridge protection system (patent pending) that can only ever be hit at angle less than 15 degrees. It doesn't matter what direction the ship is travelling or the angle the ship is at, the Dowie Hole bridge protection system (patent pending) will magically move the ship so that contact will only ever occur at an angle less than 15 degrees. At this point you are probably wondering if you can control the ship and prevent it directly impacting the Dowie Hole bridge protection system (patent pending), why don't you just move the ship away and prevent contact with the Dowie Hole bridge protection system (patent pending) in the first place, don't worry that is coming version 2 of the Dowie Hole bridge protection system (patent pending).

The Dowie Hole bridge protection system (patent pending) is made from the densest and hardest material known to man, all the threads that have been sucked into the Dowie Hole. Due to the density and hardness of this material, the Dowie Hole bridge protection system (patent pending) does not deform as it absorbs the kinetic energy from the ship which would slow it down. No no no, dear reader its easier to just "deflect" the ship rather than to absorb any of the kinetic energy from the ship which would slow it down. This unique property of the material used in the Dowie Hole bridge protection system (patent pending) allows ships to bounce off Dowie Hole bridge protection system (patent pending) like a ping pong ball against the wall.

With that we have reached the conclusion of the Dowie hole.
 
Last edited:
Soldato
Joined
1 Mar 2010
Posts
21,926
R4today had announced last years lloyds 7/8Bn profits

Suez canal incident showed, even if there are no fatalities, dredging some kind of channel to protect a bridge could still present possibility of an economic obstruction/hit.
 
Caporegime
Joined
29 Jan 2008
Posts
58,912
Spoiler so you guys don't have to read it.

I think you just got confused tbh... at some angles or at least with some shapes of barriers - say crashing into a straight edge perpendicular or close to it, it perhaps won't deflect. At no point is what you claimed true though whereby deflection is as hard or harder than stopping it as deflection still conserves some momentum, you don't need to know anything more other than it's deflected in order to state that. Why do you think dolphins are round rather than straight? The point there is so as to make deflection possible, to try to avoid it crashing into a straight edge perpendicular or close to. (Also it's a bridge, think about it - as I said you know roughly how ships will be approaching; in a channel in either direction)

The experts quoted clearly state that deflecting ships would be a way of protecting the bridge, it was quite correct for Werewolf to observe that stopping a huge ship would take a hell of a lot and it was quite correct for me to reply to him and point out that stopping the ship isn't necessarily required but rather you could aim to deflect ships. You decided to argue against that and were wrong and now you're miffed about it.
 
Last edited:
Associate
Joined
28 Dec 2003
Posts
1,031
Location
Scotland / Norfolk
The history of the boat seems very accident prone.

I presume you are referring the the incident when the vessel hit the quay before which has been popping up on social media. Notwithstanding the fact it would almost certainly been a completely different crew back then, honestly these sorts of things (allisions with piers in strong winds etc) are surprisingly common. I work for a company with a fleet of circa 100 ships. There's internal incident reports every few days where something or other has gone wrong. It's just usually not big enough to make the news. Obviously stuff like the bridge incident is a lot more rare but these things do happen. Suez cancel incident is the other big one everyone has heard about recently but every few years there is something big that makes the news.
 
Caporegime
Joined
23 Dec 2011
Posts
32,924
Location
Northern England
I presume you are referring the the incident when the vessel hit the quay before which has been popping up on social media. Notwithstanding the fact it would almost certainly been a completely different crew back then, honestly these sorts of things (allisions with piers in strong winds etc) are surprisingly common. I work for a company with a fleet of circa 100 ships. There's internal incident reports every few days where something or other has gone wrong. It's just usually not big enough to make the news. Obviously stuff like the bridge incident is a lot more rare but these things do happen. Suez cancel incident is the other big one everyone has heard about recently but every few years there is something big that makes the news.

I'm on the other end, generally dealing with the things that get hit! Or the bollards that shear.
I've rebuilt jetties, dolphins, quays, nav lights. All from collisions.
 
Associate
Joined
9 Oct 2005
Posts
2,324
Location
Berkshire
Who last week were global politics experts and the week before were submarine disaster ones....


I always feel sorry for the wives of self-professed 'polymaths' :cry:

"Gosh that crane/bridge/tower/goose looks dangerous doesn't it dear"
"Well let me spend the next 45 minutes explaining why it isn't dangerous..."
*** ten minutes later ***
"I'll just keep quiet in future"
 
Back
Top Bottom