Barcelona Incident

h4rm0ny said:
I am. So perhaps you have a point. I'm not indiscrimantly lumping them in though. To be clear, I DID distinguish between problems caused by the Left in general and those caused by specifically the militant Left / Antifa. I referred to both in my post but if you'll look you'll see I categorised them separately. I do concede that I see a lot of overlap and connection between the two groups though. And you may observe that many White Supremacists and Nazis support some of the more mainstream politicans and policies on the Right. (Although they always think they don't go far enough). The differences I'll draw though are as follows:
  • The Right routinely condemns groups like White Supremacists and Nazis. The Left tacitly supports its more militant wings.
  • Both media and academia routinely condemn groups like White Supremacists and Nazis. Both routinely turn a blind eye or even support militant left wingers. Had Nazis done to Hamburg what Black Block anti-capitalists did to it, there would have been endless coverage and criticism.
  • White Supremacists and Nazis are not generally actually Right Wing. Antifa usually are genuinely communist or socialist. You will try to reject this as a double standard but I have had some fairly extensive conversations with groups of antifa and anarchists (almost always anarcho-communist) and generally they have at least a basic understanding of their political ideology and social politics, sometimes pretty deep. Your average Nazi can barely spell their political ideology. For this reason and the above two, there's a much smoother gradiation as you move from Left Wing militancy to mainstream Left Wing politics than there is with Right Wing where there is a sharp break. As I say, W/S and Nazis are kind of their own special and repugnant block. They might wave the odd Trump banner or Confederate Flag, but they're actually pretty isolated.
  • Numbers. The number of militant Left dwarfs the number of W/S and Nazis. By several multiples. That makes one much scarier than the other even before you factor in media and academic acceptance as above.
  • Left Wing militants focus a lot on shutting down dialogue. Whereas the W/S and Nazis are fighting for a voice. I don't want to listen to Nazi rubbish but their struggle to get attention is a lot less threatening to me than the Militant Left's determination to shut down speech that they disagree with. The one is a minor threat, the other a fundamental attack on our freedoms.
So that's not a rigorous analysis - it's late and I was just having a skim through the thread out of interest and saw my name. However, I think that's a good if not comprehensive reply. I "lumped" in generic Left wing with militant Left Wing more so than I do its counterparts, because, primarily, I see more acceptance of militancy on the Left. There could be a bias at play - I do, after all, self-identify as Right Wing. However, reviewing the above I think everything in it is supportable and accords with my actual experiences.
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Great post
 
Freakbro said:
Well, that's what I always thought, but Participant has been repeating for a few days now that he was a leftie, so i'm interested to hear why he's come to that conclusion
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It's because @Participant and @h4rm0ny would like you to believe that all mass-murdering dictators are left-wing and that this is the inevitable conclusion to any society that embraces Socialism.

They seem to think that the legacy of Stalin and Mao are some kind of inconvenient truth 'the left' don't want to acknowledge and that if they add Mussolini and Hitler to the same list, it will make their case all the more damning.

The irony of this viewpoint is clearly lost on them.

It also comes from a position that 'left wing' and 'Socialist' equals Stalinist/Maoist Communism, yet to suggest that 'right wing' equals Nazism/Fascism has them frothing at the mouth. Again, the irony is palpable.

Yes, Mussolini started out as a Socialist but his disillusionment with Communism and his falling out with the Italian Socialists led to the rise of Fascism. It was seen as 'a third way' between Free-market Capitalism and Communism. To claim that it was left-wing is frankly absurd. @h4rm0ny seemed to suggest that because there was universal healthcare and some sate intervention in business, that Fascism was a "left wing system with some right-wing attributes". In fact, it was the opposite.

Equally, because Nazism has 'Socialist' in its title, they seem to think this makes it left-wing. In its early days, when Hitler was member #7, some of his fellow members may well have had socialist leanings but he soon put an end to that during 'the night of the long knives'.

It doesn't help that the terms 'Socialism' and 'Communism' (and even 'Liberalism') are used interchangeably. The ideas of Socialism were around before Marx and Marxism certainly isn't equal to Stalinism. Socialism has many facets and alternative viewpoints. Yet they will try to make you believe that Socialism = totalitarian dictator, ergo all totalitarianism is left wing, ergo all left wingers are totalitarian.

The fact is, any 'normal' left winger will agree that totalitarian application of far-left principals is a bad thing, just as any totalitarian application of far right-wing principals is also a bad thing — this is why they are 'far left' and 'far right' positions.

Most people are somewhere near the centre, whether centre left or centre right, but somehow the debate always ends up calling each other Nazis and Communists…
 
Irish_Tom said:
It's because @Participant and @h4rm0ny would like you to believe that all mass-murdering dictators are left-wing and that this is the inevitable conclusion to any society that embraces Socialism.

They seem to think that the legacy of Stalin and Mao are some kind of inconvenient truth 'the left' don't want to acknowledge and that if they add Mussolini and Hitler to the same list, it will make their case all the more damning.

The irony of this viewpoint is clearly lost on them.

It also comes from a position that 'left wing' and 'Socialist' equals Stalinist/Maoist Communism, yet to suggest that 'right wing' equals Nazism/Fascism has them frothing at the mouth. Again, the irony is palpable.

Yes, Mussolini started out as a Socialist but his disillusionment with Communism and his falling out with the Italian Socialists led to the rise of Fascism. It was seen as 'a third way' between Free-market Capitalism and Communism. To claim that it was left-wing is frankly absurd. @h4rm0ny seemed to suggest that because there was universal healthcare and some sate intervention in business, that Fascism was a "left wing system with some right-wing attributes". In fact, it was the opposite.

Equally, because Nazism has 'Socialist' in its title, they seem to think this makes it left-wing. In its early days, when Hitler was member #7, some of his fellow members may well have had socialist leanings but he soon put an end to that during 'the night of the long knives'.

It doesn't help that the terms 'Socialism' and 'Communism' (and even 'Liberalism') are used interchangeably. The ideas of Socialism were around before Marx and Marxism certainly isn't equal to Stalinism. Socialism has many facets and alternative viewpoints. Yet they will try to make you believe that Socialism = totalitarian dictator, ergo all totalitarianism is left wing, ergo all left wingers are totalitarian.

The fact is, any 'normal' left winger will agree that totalitarian application of far-left principals is a bad thing, just as any totalitarian application of far right-wing principals is also a bad thing — this is why they are 'far left' and 'far right' positions.

Most people are somewhere near the centre, whether centre left or centre right, but somehow the debate always ends up calling each other Nazis and Communists…
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Far too much sense for this forum mate.

I don't really know where I stand politically. I've had quite a change of heart after the last election. Voted Tory but probably never again, I think Corbyn has said a lot of sensible things that I hadn't thought of before the election.

I don't agree with everything he says but I think he's promising real change that will benefit a lot of people. I get called "communist" or "Marxist" for that but I'd rather live in a country like Finland or Norway than the USA which is where we're going. Those countries seem to function just fine.
 
On topic it appears that the little British born boy has been confirmed to have died. He looks so much like my son it's uncanny. Heart breaking for his family. :(
 
Why is there always a massive discussion every time there's a terrorist attack?

I read the headline, something like 'van hits crowd of pedestrians'. I thought, 'Oh, probably another terrorist has ran some people over'.

I didn't even read it.

And the hypocrisy of some people here. 'Oh that poor British kid - what a shame RIP.

When you see this in the news, do you wonder how many families in the Middle East our war planes have destroyed. How many of their children we've killed?

I think not.
 
Smokey Deza said:
And the hypocrisy of some people here. 'Oh that poor British kid - what a shame RIP.

When you see this in the news, do you wonder how many families in the Middle East our war planes have destroyed. How many of their children we've killed?

I think not.
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Maybe because somebody with even a couple of brain cells can understand that people here can easily relate with a family being on holiday?
 
Gigabit said:
Those countries seem to function just fine.
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As someone who has spent a lot of time in Norway and has a lot of Norwegian friends - no. No they don't. Major problems with immigration. Inability of the young to get a job. Wages dropping.
 
Gigabit said:
Such as?
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A lot of it. Results in wages dropping, young Norwegians unable to get jobs that they would traditionally occupy (for example shop assistants), disappearing tax revenues (immigrants sending money back home rather than spending it), some increases in crime though I've not seen stats to back it up.

wikipedia is actually somewhat helpful...

"Oslo has witnessed annual spikes in sexual assault cases in years leading up to 2012.[13] Immigrants from Africa and the Middle East were found by Oslo police to be overrepresented as perpetrators.[14]"
 
Also bear in mind youth unemployment and wages falling in real terms when adjusted for inflation is a common issue among most of the western world; it's not like Norway is suffering these problems just because they're a bit lefty.
 
Smokey Deza said:
Why is there always a massive discussion every time there's a terrorist attack?

I read the headline, something like 'van hits crowd of pedestrians'. I thought, 'Oh, probably another terrorist has ran some people over'.

I didn't even read it.

And the hypocrisy of some people here. 'Oh that poor British kid - what a shame RIP.

When you see this in the news, do you wonder how many families in the Middle East our war planes have destroyed. How many of their children we've killed?

I think not.
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You make it sound like our armed forces are hunting Middle Eastern families for sport - shame on you.

Personally it is something I've followed quite a bit - the displacement of families, etc. in these war zones - I've a couple of friends who are involved in programs to help these people in the region and donate to their cause.
 
Smokey Deza said:
Why is there always a massive discussion every time there's a terrorist attack?

I read the headline, something like 'van hits crowd of pedestrians'. I thought, 'Oh, probably another terrorist has ran some people over'.

I didn't even read it.

And the hypocrisy of some people here. 'Oh that poor British kid - what a shame RIP.

When you see this in the news, do you wonder how many families in the Middle East our war planes have destroyed. How many of their children we've killed?

I think not.
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You sound like you know a lot....

Our "war planes" haven't killed even half as many civilians as the Islamofascists have over the last decade, do yourself a favour next time, don't even bother opening the thread if you don't know what actually going on in the region.
 
I really don't think anything can be done (not in our lifetime anyway) to put a stop to these attacks. As Islam grows in the West the more problems we will have to deal with.
 
Skunkworks said:
Find some stats and show us.
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In terms of what Western forces have done is one thing but it is pretty grim in the overall story - friend of mine is working with a program in Lebanon working with an estimated 50,000 displaced families most of which have directly lost someone (generally due to ISIS, etc.) and these are just minority religion and no religion families never mind Muslim families, etc.

At the end of the day our armed forces aren't intentionally attacking civilians.
 
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