Baroness Thatcher has died.

[newbiejim]

I had a reply from my wife's Uncle, he worked at several pits including Ollerton in Nottinghamshire. He states that his basic wage just before the strike was £137 a week after deductions, he got another £100 a week in productivity bonuses, £12 a week bonus for working on the face, plus he could earn double time for a single man shift or triple time for double shifting, he said he got large Christmas bonuses and one year received £500 as a Christmas bonus, tax free. He also said that apprentices could earn full time rates for overtime, so could make up their stipend to a living wage.

Whether people want to believe this or not is up to them, but it is what he said nonetheless, if I could give you links to NCB archives then I would, perhaps if it means that much to peope then they can issue an FoI request to the National Archive to find out.

Good god are you the most unreasonable man on the planet?, despite doing everything possible you still cant get to your original wild claim now you both have started including overtime!, I think you have the capacity to understand that this merry dance you have led everyone hugely dilutes the worth of your argument.

 

[VIPER258]

If they do riot police need to be able to take action and not just stand around doing nothing.

 

[elmarko]

Ding Dong (The Witch Is Dead) by Judy Garland.

Little to the idiots buying it know it is actually a Pro-Thatcher song. The 'wicked witch' the song refers to was the Wicked Witch Of The East, so is analogous to Thatcher bringing down the Iron Curtain.

Ding Dong (The Witch Is Dead) - Lyrics by E.Y._Harburg

Harburg's nickname "Yipsel" (often shortened to "Yip") came about as "Yipsel" is how people pronounced "YPSL" -- the acronym for the Young People's Socialist League of which he was a member.

Seems appropriate tbh.

In short - Ding dong the witch is dead is not a pro-Thatcher song, it was written for a film before that time in history & it's lyrics were written by a socialist.

Feel free to admit you were wrong in your own time .

 

[spankingtexan]

If they do incite a riot public need to be able to take action and not just stand around doing nothing.

 

[Castiel]

I disagree, you paste figures from different sources which can be countered by figures from other sources, ultimately none of us can really prove any of these figures/facts are indeed valid. Obfuscation doesnt help.

You have not given any other sources for me to consider however, so how can I remain objective to your perspective when everything points to a different conclusion?

lol if ever anyone was culpable of this its you. (imho of course)

That is your opinion, not one that I think is borne out by the respective contributions however.

I`m sure in your mind you think that is true, there are so many holes in that it is way too tiresome to counter.

If it is too tiresome, then why spend days countering it with inanity rather than substantiation? Does this kind of reply not illustrate the criticism laid against you?

No no not 'even if' that was what Dimple mentioned and you got wrong, yes YOU got WRONG .

I don't actually see the point you are making then, it seems that you are obsessed with proving others wrong on any point whatsoever, I also gave a revised account to assuage your demands...

I'll quote the post Dimple made that I read when you quoted it later....

Thatcher devastated Stoke On Trent, we were a mining and steel city (as well as Pottery) but something needed doing with the greedy Miners. I was working in a factory on about £75/week but my Miner mates were getting 'millionaires' wages and wanted more more more and would keep going on strike to get it. I know it sounds like jealousy but mining jobs were 'Family' jobs and you could only get in if you had family already there. When you're working class you should all be on the same steps of the ladder and it was quite hard to share your pub with greedy Miners. Something had to happen and she was the person to do it.

It makes no mention of 1974, the implication is clearly the 1980s as it refers to Thatcher, who was not in power in 1974...you made the observation that Dimple was referring to 1974 in respect to another claim, I accepted that and gave a revision to account for it....

I also note that quite a few people have substantiated Dimples opinion, including another from Stoke...is it not therefore possible that their experience is simply different from yours because you did not live in Stoke?

No I`m not, my reasons for entering this thread were to challenge wild accusations about miners. I asked for proof both from you and Dimple, you both made wild claims which you have both failed to back up adequately. Again it is fair that the onus is on the person who makes the claim to substantiate it.

It is fair that everyone who makes or implies authoritative statements either in support of or in refutation of a stated point should offer either substantiation, or explain that it is opinion based on either experience or the anecdotal experience of another...both Dimple and I have done this...you have not.

But but you said it was impossible to have details of miners wages?, and its not affect, its effect, a nuance which some struggle with, this indicates to me that despite your apparent verbosity you are prone to very basic errors , thats quite a failing though, throughout your whole life you have been getting that wrong?

Oh dear, you are now going to imply an autocorrect error is evidence of that my opinion has no worth, we are desperate to win the Internet today are we not?

For the record I stated it was currently impossible to verify online details for what a miner earned in 1983...there is however verification on 1974.

Again, more meaningless figures........ for the benefit of the silent majority reading this..........this is MY truth, my father like I said was Assistant Chief Engineer at Highouse Colliery,Auchinleck he got redundancy just before the strike and got NOWHERE near that amount after working in the pits all his life, (over fifty years) this is MY direct experience, I realise you can dispute this but ultimately it is provable.

Then please prove it. The figures I gave are a matter of record however, as I gave the links earlier..I assume you read them.

I dont think I do, I conceded you made a fair point about opinions via posts being unsolicited. What have you conceded?

You have conceded nothing in relation to the actual discussion, the point about unsolicitation was not inherent in the discussion on miners. I conceded the anecdotal nature of the figures relating to my Uncle in Law....this I made several times and stated that they were not authoritative, they were based on the statec experiences of a third party and therefore unverifiable....exactly the same as the experiences of your Father.

I criticise your wide and liberal use of these sources/figures for reasons I have explained above. Odd that all the figures and sources support only one viewpoint.

I did not use them in a broad or liberal way, I used them to illustrate a perspective common at the time...the figures support what the figures support and that is that polls at the time showed a lack of majority support for the NUM by the public.....nothing more.

You are criticising me in a similar vein to which you are criticising me for

I have not impugned your character, I have asked for the same standards that you apply to others be applicable to you....I have no issue with you or your posting style.

You are obviously biased, in fact in an earlier post I opened with 'you seem reasonable' or similar, so actually I have been courteous to you.

Yet, when it was clear that I disagreed with you, that courtesy stopped. I am not obviously biased...I am attempting to be objective, I am quite willing to consider any evidence that you wish to offer...I have several times stated categorically that neither your nor Dimple's position is inherently wrong, it is simply based on your respective experiences..you are the one who refuses to accept that your experience (how old we you btw) is not indicative of everyone and it may well be that in other regions people had diffetent experiences. We have seen in this thread several people offer their experiences, largely they echo Dimple's...I see nothing to suggest either of you are inherently wrong, you however seem to feel that your opinion is right at the expense of everyone else's. I do not feel that is objective.

I dispute the logic you derive this conclusion from.

Explain?

It is my opinion you are not fair minded, if you were you would countenance the possibility that the other arguments just may well have some worth. Not to mention when asked to opine on soemthing politely you instead of being helpful, embark on a hugely convoluted charade not only to avoid doing so but to emerge like you are reasonable.

I am sorry you feel that way. Given that I have, several times made it quite clear that both yours and Dimple's opinions are simply different, and have equal worth if we take them on an individuals experience, I feel that your criticism is somewhat unfounded.

If I emerged from that particular exchange as appearing reasonable, perhaps it is because I am being reasonable...Occams Razor and all that!

Now would you like to discuss the actual topic of Thatcher and the Moners, or are you going to continue on the debating of comparative personalities? If the latter than I will simply ignore you, if the former then I look forward to whatever you ave to offer.

 

[newbiejim]

Just prior to the 1984 strike. He did also say, and I should mention for clarity, that other pit workers like underground miners not on the face, and surface workers were paid quite a bit less, and so were some other pits...he worked in one (he didn't mention which) that paid half the basic wage that he was getting in Nottinghamshire.

No please, not for simple clarity, for both clarity, fairness and to avoid accidental (and I`m cutting you some slack here) misrepresentation, again SURELY any fair minded person would be looking for average wage, not going to the ends of the earth (and failing) to prove an unlikely one.

I don't think stating that miners earned good money comparatively is negative bias or judging whether it is deserved or not...

BUT that is NOT what happened, if that was ventured in those very reasonable terms I would have no issues at all. No one mentioned 'comparitively' rather we got wild claims of hugely inflated wages which when found to be false overtime was added lol.

 

[Castiel]

Good god are you the most unreasonable man on the planet?, despite doing everything possible you still cant get to your original wild claim now you both have started including overtime!, I think you have the capacity to understand that this merry dance you have led everyone hugely dilutes the worth of your argument.

Did I not include overtime in my original statement?

in 1983 a Miner could (with overtime) earn up to £600-£800 a week...

I also note that I stated 'up to' there was no implication that this was the norm or anything other than what it states.

 

[newbiejim]

It makes no mention of 1974, the implication is clearly the 1980s as it refers to Thatcher, who was not in power in 1974...you made the observation that Dimple was referring to 1974 in respect to another claim, I accepted that and gave a revision to account for it....

I also note that quite a few people have substantiated Dimples opinion, including another from Stoke...is it not therefore possible that their experience is simply different from yours because you did not live in Stoke?

Just quickly....
Incredibly you have failed again, seriously, for all the overtly florid language and apparent eloquence ultimately the requirement for true diligence leaves you wanting. You have assumed I referred to that post, incorrect!, utterly amazing you are ready to expound on anything, provide on the face of it a beguiling case but the most basic of assumptions find you out (again), go on check it, then get back to me, or preferably not tbh.

 

[Castiel]

No please, not for simple clarity, for both clarity, fairness and to avoid accidental (and I`m cutting you some slack here) misrepresentation, again SURELY any fair minded person would be looking for average wage, not going to the ends of the earth (and failing) to prove an unlikely one.

Average wages are relatively hard to find, they are also relative to the average of those earning outside of the Mines in the regions..for the sake of argument, this was never about average wages of miners, it was about the perception of the public, people like Dampdog and Dimple when they compared their net spending power with that of the miners, accompanied by the demands made by the NUM and the strike actions and so on....it is comparative to many arguments we have on the relative wages of Tube Drivers and the perception of greed when they strike for large pay increases.

I think that I have been entirely fair-minded and offered a range of evidence to support that. I am sorry you feel differently and feel that I have been somehow unfair or dishonest with you.

in 1983 a Miner could (with overtime) earn up to £600-£800 a week...

BUT that is NOT what happened, if that was ventured in those very reasonable terms I would have no issues at all. No one mentioned 'comparitively' rather we got wild claims of hugely inflated wages which when found to be false overtime was added lol.[/QUOTE]

I mentioned (with overtime) from the outset (as well as it being comparative)...I did not include bonuses though, as I did not know until I got clarification the extent or nature of such bonuses.

 

[newbiejim]

Did I not include overtime in my original statement?



I also note that I stated 'up to' there was no implication that this was the norm or anything other than what it states.

LOL, just LOL, scrambling around for a shred of dignity, do you REALLY want me to deign to let you off with that? , you bang on about 'substantive', well the 'substantive' core points of your post were NOT driven by integrity sir, rather the sensationalist banner headlines we see in The Sun, now you want off the hook on a technicality, ok I pardon you , did that have an effect?

 

[McGray]

My word!

Close this thread.

 

[newbiejim]

Average wages are relatively hard to find, they are also relative to the average of those earning outside of the Mines in the regions..for the sake of argument, this was never about average wages of miners, it was about the perception of the public, people like Dampdog and Dimple when they compared their net spending power with that of the miners, accompanied by the demands made by the NUM and the strike actions and so on....it is comparative to many arguments we have on the relative wages of Tube Drivers and the perception of greed when they strike for large pay increases.

I think that I have been entirely fair-minded and offered a range of evidence to support that. I am sorry you feel differently and feel that I have been somehow unfair or dishonest with you.

Yes I`m sorry too that you choose to champion the cause of Dimple who had an envious gripe about at best a small number of people, weird just weird.



BUT that is NOT what happened, if that was ventured in those very reasonable terms I would have no issues at all. No one mentioned 'comparitively' rather we got wild claims of hugely inflated wages which when found to be false overtime was added lol.[/QUOTE]

I mentioned (with overtime) from the outset (as well as it being comparative)...I did not include bonuses though, as I did not know until I got clarification the extent or nature of such bonuses.

Uh oh, formatting fail now.............. panic stations..........yes you did, but the point is why you would even attempt to spend so much time trying to prove this ultimately unprovable and unlikely wage?

 

[Castiel]

Just quickly....
Incredibly you have failed again, seriously, for all the overtly florid language and apparent eloquence ultimately the requirement for true diligence leaves you wanting. You have assumed I referred to that post, incorrect!, utterly amazing you are ready to expound on anything, provide on the face of it a beguiling case but the most basic of assumptions find you out (again), go on check it, then get back to me, or preferably not tbh.

I think you need to calm down, I made an assumption I will happily admit that, however given the nature of the discussion (remember it was you who solicited me, and I was referring to c1983) it is a perfectly understandable one and I would refer you to standards..if it is imperative that I must stand up to a perfect set of due diligent standards in an informal discussion on an internet forum, then to coin your oft used phrase, it is fair-minded that you also are held to those same standards, is it not?

I would also take this opportunity to remind you once again that this should not be about personal enmity, but about the points under debate....I see no justification in this line of argument, it isn't productive and only riles people up.

 

[Castiel]

Snip

Snip

My apologies, but I feel that this has deteriorated beyond recovery. It is no longer productive or likely to lead anywhere other than enmity, which I do not wish nor want.

I respect your opinion, even if I do not agree with it or how you express it. I leave it for others to decide who, if anyone is right-minded.

Have a good day Jim and a fine weekend.

 

[newbiejim]

I think you need to calm down, I made an assumption I will happily admit that, however given the nature of the discussion (remember it was you who solicited me, and I was referring to c1983) it is a perfectly understandable one and I would refer you to standards..if it is imperative that I must stand up to a perfect set of due diligent standards in an informal discussion on an internet forum, then to coin your oft used phrase, it is fair-minded that you also are held to those same standards, is it not?

I would also take this opportunity to remind you once again that this should not be about personal enmity, but about the points under debate....I see no justification in this line of argument, it isn't productive and only riles people up.

I didnt say DUE diligence, I said diligence. I thank you genuinely for admitting your error though. I feel strongly about people I know being misrepresented as you can see. I have no real personal enmity, rather a mild irritation that we are all subject to when engaging in robust discussion. Now, sincerely, I`m sure you are a decent guy as am I and I have no desire to engage in a slanging match, but I will defend myself, thats all for now, unfortunately work is making demands.

 

[Castiel]

I didnt say DUE diligence, I said diligence. I thank you genuinely for admitting your error though. I feel strongly about people I know being misrepresented as you can see. I have no real personal enmity, rather a mild irritation that we are all subject to when engaging in robust discussion. Now, sincerely, I`m sure you are a decent guy as am I and I have no desire to engage in a slanging match, but I will defend myself, thats all for now, unfortunately work is making demands.

I don't feel I misrepresented anyone, I offered only the experience of someone who was a miner for most of his life, and I have attempted to offer whatever supporting evidence that is available.

Anyway, good luck with the demands of work, I hope they are not too onerous, and have a good weekend.

 

[cm1179]

 

[4Play]

Just quickly....
Incredibly you have failed again, seriously, for all the overtly florid language and apparent eloquence ultimately the requirement for true diligence leaves you wanting. You have assumed I referred to that post, incorrect!, utterly amazing you are ready to expound on anything, provide on the face of it a beguiling case but the most basic of assumptions find you out (again), go on check it, then get back to me, or preferably not tbh.

Is this guy for real ? I think you need to calm down and realise this is an Internet forum not an English university test. People are going to have an opinion of thatcher purely based on what was told to them by family or friends. Which is just an opinion not fact. Either tone it down and bring this thread back on topic or it risks closure .

Back on topic I think what she will be remembered for in the end will be her strong character and iron resolve. We need more people like her who are willing to make tough decisions and stand by them.

 

[newbiejim]

I don't feel I misrepresented anyone, I offered only the experience of someone who was a miner for most of his life, and I have attempted to offer whatever supporting evidence that is available.

Anyway, good luck with the demands of work, I hope they are not too onerous, and have a good weekend.

But it didnt support the £800 claim , sorry I coudnt resist , I may relax over the weekend with a glass of port, or commune with my worthy ex miners in my local .

To conclude, (but this constitutes me having the last word y? ), I hope you have a nice weekend and that our robust exchange provides you with a wry smile.

 

[randomshenans]

Northern people are a little bitter and moany, I find, about all this. MOAN MOAN MOAN victim of life moan moan moan.

If I'm not mistaken the situation was the same a week ago, she just wasn't dead then. Oh, but now she is let's all get even more bitter and moany, or, as a massively mental notion, we could get on with our lives and if we don't like something, do something about it.