BBC document on Covid (Health Service) and Racism

When I saw the tittle, my immediate reaction is that it is going to be about ethnic minority’s social background and a link to poorer level of income and opportunities. But the segment I watched was about NHS and how the services is inherently biased. Which struck me a bit.

as I said I haven’t watch the whole thing. But the segment I watched is a bit of a revelation.
 
just watched through the documentary. largely agree with David's finding and the fact that the politician (not sure she is in governemnt or from opposition) also highlight a strong link between covid death/hospitalisation rate to many of the factors David highlighted in the first 40min of the video is pretty blatant.

David has obviously linked to minority's socia-economic and geographical conditions to systemic racism - which is probably true as attitudes takes generations to change.

I dont feel he has explored anywhere near enough details in the latter part of his vidoe - such as the segment i watched where the lady doctor was saying minority represent 44% NHS doctors and 95% of those doctors died are minority. I think using death rate is probably a very narrow narrative to link covid and insitutional racism in NHS and she speculated difference in roles but with no backup on statistics or any real study. also I believe the number of doctors died are very small 33 (and please visit the link below to pay respect to these fallen heroes) so to draw any conclusive statistics is quite difficult.

https://www.bmj.com/covid-memorial

is there is a link between racism and covid - yes for sure. the simple fact is that minority people aren't dying in the nearly same % of their native population as they are in our society. so it has to do with something in this country or the western society. race or a consideration of race in our society has to be a massive part of that. however I cant help to think multiculturalism and other factors are in play also.
 
Hades said:
Just because there is a relationship between race and death doesn't make it racism. It is the cause of that relationship which may, or may not, indicate racism.
Click to expand...
proabbly should have wrote that better myself. should have said below

is there is a link between race and covid - yes for sure
Click to expand...

as the lady doctor said, there is no genetic marker for race that make it more covid prone such that covid should hit certain race more than others. the fact people of race in their native country are dying as much.
 
Why would BAME families live in Uk any different to their own native country? One would argue they are financially better in UK so why within the BAME group the covid death rate within BAME population is so high?

cultural habit can only explain part of the covid issues. Yes there will be more covid cases as they tend to live in inter-generational house holds. Yes they might not adhere to the covid guidances as much. Btw none of these notions have any evidence. But why BAME people die at a 5times higher mortality rate than Caucasians where there is no genetic differences between the two groups of people that offer one group more protection that the other.

plus the litmus test is that BAME people in their native countries aren’t dying at anywhere near the same % of death rate.

I think you lot trying to justify this issue on BAME’s culture or what else is just non-sense. During first lock down, I saw far greater number of Caucasian population in parks in groups socialising than any BAME group. I saw far greater number of Caucasian Middle Aged women not wearing masks in shops, supermarkets, post offices that any other group of people. This argument that BAME are dying more mist because their behaviour is crazy notion. There is no evidence to back that up
 
Last edited:
Hang on people,

why do black people die more from covid ie death rate significantly higher?

- obesity in black - black 73% obese vs 63% obese white. So why 5x black to white death rate.
https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/health/diet-and-exercise/overweight-adults/latest

- culture behaviour and inter generational housing - lack of evidence to suggest this. From behaviour and lock down fines, more white have been fined than black. So who’s breaking the rule more?

- more likely to be front line services thus more exposure - true, this would explain more cases of covid in blacks. However the normalised death rate per population takes the exposure out of equation ie if 100 white had covid vs 10000 black with covid if all things being equal then death rate should remain the same within these two population groups. So for every 1 white death there would be 100 black. but the fact is that Black Death rate is 5 times that of white or for every 1 white there are 500 black. So exposure cannot explain the increased death rate.

- underlying health and mental health issues - we know this is a factor, however is this the result of societal prejudice? We know health is related to obesity, but blacks are only 1.2x more obese across a population than white so why is the general health condition over 3 times worse quoting stats from the video.

- poverty and income level - false. blacks and whites have very similar levels. https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures...nefits/pay-and-income/household-income/latest

for the record, I don’t believe our NHS is institutionally racist or biased. Many of the nurses and doctors are ethnic minorities. The video even said that 44% of NHS staff are from ethnic group so it would be massively weird that ethnic minority is racist against itself. The last 20min of the video is interesting but full of statistical issues and doesn’t stand up well in the light of critical analysis and I think it is added to push the agenda more than anything.

So if there isn’t race issue at play with respect to the covid death rate and general health of black, what is the under lying issue that is causing such high death rate amongst black communities when compared with national average and white populations?
 
Last edited:
The Running Man said:
It's a combination of factors, 20% more obese

Not following lockdown rules

Being more susceptible to covid

Cultural reasons

Add them all together and you end up with a multiplier effect.
Click to expand...
Being more susceptible to covid? You know that’s BS right. There is no science or any proof that is the case. You are saying somehow genetically blacks are different to us?? Other than the genes governing skin pigment and hair...

make I what I am asking is why the death rate is higher not why there are more cases of covid in blacks.

Brighter cultural behaviour or lock down rule breaking or working in front lines can explain why rate is so much higher.
 
Last edited:
Angilion said:
According to the ONS, it's 3.3x for men and 2.4x for women. Not 5x.

The death rate for men is about 2x the death rate for women, regardless of "race". Why isn't that being treated the same way?



Uncertain. Firstly, you're referring to the number of fines, not the number of fines per population. Secondly, a simple comparison of numbers of fines (or number of fines per population) would assume no differences in how likely it is that a person breaking the rules would be fined. That's an unsubstantiated assumption and I think it's a bad one in this case.

Also, you're not providing any numbers. Given that the only number you did provide was very wrong, that's not a good sign.

Also, since when has inter generational housing been illegal? Or delaying seeking treatment?

EDIT: As a minor point, the article you linked to does not have the numbers you claim it has. Those percentages are for overweight or obese, not just obese. They also don't give any further details about the extent of how overweight the people are. There are degrees of obesity and that's relevant to the increase in health risks.



i) It's not 5x.
ii) Comparing the death rate amongst people in front line services with the death rate amongst the population as a whole is at best very dubious because it's nowhere near a like for like comparison. If being in front line services substantially increases the risk of death then a difference in the %age of people in front line services would substantially affect the %age of people dying.

Do you have a number for these two things:

Death rate for people in front line services compared with death rate for people not in front line services.
Death rate for "black" people in front line services compared with death rate for "white" people in front line services.

That would be better, but still not accurate enough because it's not a like for like comparison because "front line services" covers a wide variety of exposure risks.



Obesity isn't the only health issue.



Uncertain.

One possible explanation comes from a doctor whose channel I used to watch. They're convinced that the entire field of medicine (and a lot more besides) is absolutely institutionally racist against everyone who isn't "white". Which is why I no longer watch their channel. They stated that there is no average difference in outcome between patients of different "races" arriving at hospital with comparable cases. If that's true, the difference in death rate is caused either by a delay in seeking treatment or more serious illness from the same cause or a combination of the two.
Click to expand...
Ok I got the 5x wrong. Mis-quoted from the video but still 3x is a lot higher than any of the statistics. Also the 3x higher death rate IS NOT in front line staff. That is ONS across the population groups.

also I am not taking about death rate in front line. I am taking about death rate across a population group blacks vs whites. That equalise everything. So stop trying to twist the evidence.

regarding the obesity level, that’s government stats on level of obesity. So if you want to call it BS then fair enough. Unless you can give me a government backed website that has these data, I will say sod off.
 
The Running Man said:
No you're right let's pretend everyone is the same!

20210306-082205.jpg

text to binary
Click to expand...
That was addressed in the video. The evidence for it is flaky at the best. Dave Harewood took a test of Vit D and he s perfectly average.
 
Angilion said:
No, they're not.

They're referring to trends. There are genetic trends that are geographical in nature. Some of those trends have correlations with skin colour.
Click to expand...

you might as well call it innuendos...

those are not scientifically tested facts. It’s like correlating covid death to the way wind blows.
 
200sols said:
And the evidence for everyone being racist and causing black people to die from covid isn't flaky?
Click to expand...
I am asking what is the root cause. I am not saying it is racism. Could be inequalities, could be something we don’t know about.

but these argument that people have darker skin then they naturally die from covid more because of their skin is crazy
 
Last edited:
Angilion said:
1) You gave one number for comparative death rate and that number was very wrong.
2) You explicitly refer to people in front line services and then claim that I am "trying to twist the evidence" by referring to people in front line services.
3) You tell me to sod off for using the same source you did. You quoted a link. I clicked on the link and read it. The difference is that I actually read it and you clearly didn't.
4) You didn't even try to respond to anything I wrote.

So now I know not to take you seriously.
Click to expand...
1) I corrected
2) I didn’t give number for the front line. Where is my death rate from front line staff? You said it yourself ONS shows 3.3 times blacks vs white. You are the one trying to twist it to some front line vs population comparison. I haven’t done any of that
3) you can sod off again, you said those facts are wrong. Read your post again.
4) once more sod the hell off.

I don’t have to read anything from an ignorant sod like yourself. Consider yourself duly ignored from this debate.
 
Something to think about

- obesity level
- severity of poverty
- exposure level to pollution
- diet or % with coronary and respiratory health conditions
- mental health
- racial inequalities

there should be more study on these factors. It will help to target support and response in future disease control as well as manage long term health care plans.
 
Last edited:
Hagar said:
Let's be radical and say that rather than five or six groupings in the country that have different outcomes to Covid, there are 100,000 up to 60 million possible groupings. The higher figure is the number of human units in the UK rounded down. Up to 60 million potential different outcomes due to age, health issues and occupational risk.

This is obviously much to difficult to be sensationalist about. My lower figure is an outright guess however it is conceivable to have 100,000 groups of 600 people (60 million again) who have similar risk factors for severe illness and death. 200 groups of 600 have so far died, probably due to covid.

Again how do you present, as a TV presenter, 100,000 groupings of societal risk against dying from Covid. Obesity, other comorbidities, age, occupation, travel, disabilities etc. Tha answer is that you do not, you cannot in your half hour slot (less program ads).

You highlight one factor that possibly works. Skin colour, that will grab the audience, make them sit up, start a conversation in the house or in the street. Or in places such as here.

That is wokism.
Click to expand...
Regardless wokism or not.

there are factors at play here that is affecting people differently right? Or it is not.
 
Lord-Jaffa said:
You do realise that black white and other ethnicities are vulnerable to different diseases right, Hypertension, Lung cancer, Sarcoidosis, diabetes just to name a few? Because there is a difference in genetics.
Click to expand...
I didn’t realise there is any significant genetic variation in RACE that can cause a branching effect which can result in these disparity. I am happy to be proven wrong if you can point me to any proven scientific research in genetics variation linking to these disease to cause variations in blacks.

again, I would go back to people in their respective native countries that these issues are not as high percentage per population.

it has something to the society, social and/or environment in this country.
 
Lord-Jaffa said:
You can check this for yourself, a 5 second google would provide you with more than enough evidence that certain ethnic groups are genetically susceptible to differing diseases, its widely known and accepted in the medical field, I'm not sure why you are questioning it?
Click to expand...
Just googled hypertension link - top few results say links are inconclusive. they seem to be American research. No idea if they are peer reviewed or verified. One of the site actually said in the conclusion that environmental factors may have bigger contributions to hypertension than any genetic variation.

If you can point me in the direction of other disease you mentioned that has link to genetic variation it would be great. Thanks.

Also I think it is widely accepted amongst medical professionals blacks are more at risk to these diseases. But I am not sure it is accepted that their genetics are playing the part. Anyway I am happy to be proven wrong if that is the case.
 
Last edited:
The Running Man said:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...aicans-sprinting-athletics-commonwealth-games

Its still early days for all of these types of studies.

But if you look at the top 10 fastest men in the world none of them come from the largest race in the world the Chinese or indians etc.

Odd that isn't it?

How would you explain that?

Is the 100m race inherently racist? Is it the officiating? How do you explain it?
Click to expand...
Same article also provided below quote. It is interesting to see if there are any links to genetics. However as it stands it is a theory as opposed to proven fact. Looking at the west African covid cases, I would argue environmental and diet has a greater contributing factor. Need to find a load of twins (genetically identical) and one half live in west Africa and the other half in UK see if similar trends in the two population emerge...

Becoming more affluent makes no difference, and it is not strictly genetic: the west African population doesn’t suffer a similar problem. Something is different about the descendants of slaves. Epigenetic factors – changes that turn genes on and off – could well be responsible.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom