Being headhunted, feeling dispirited at work, but at the centre of a brand new project…need advice

[dirtychinchilla]

Just a small note on this, which you may already be aware of but your last comment seems like you're somewhat worried about moving into a higher tax bracket - remember the higher tax only applies to earnings over that threshold, not your entire earnings.

Thank you. I am aware of that, but I was just weighing up say if I went from £45k to £55k, that's a nominal £10k increase, but I would have to adjust for the fact that part of that would then be hit with the higher tax rate so it's not a clean £10k minus what I'd normally be taxed.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Aye, once you get into the higher tax bracket its worth starting to look at whole package value instead of take home. A 5k a year pay rise in the higher tax bracket is probably 200-250 quid a month extra, not exactly life changing, but I'd imagine the role also comes with a better pension, possibly PMI, etc.

Although never move just for money, been there, done that, was *****.

Yeah absolutely, it might all just go into my pension all being well. It's not like we're struggling for cash, but a car allowance would certainly help knock some money of our monthly bills.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

At risk of putting my full life story on here (let's be honest, it's probably on here already), my "pay rise" was just confirmed. No actually pay rise, just opted out of the bonus scheme so they've given me 4.5% guaranteed for the year. Nothing unexpected tbh, just typically strange behaviour from the cmopany. But, it's help solidify my feelings for now. I've been writing a mental list of weird **** they've done over time, and this has gone right at the top.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Further further development, I have 3 new starters joining in the next 2 weeks. I have no idea what I'm supposed to be doing with them and I have no interest in finding out.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

In business you have to pay for loyalty. If you get a better offer go for that.

The working environment is important though. I'd rather work in a fun place with a lower wage than a ****** place with a bigger wage.

In all fairness, I have really enjoyed working there for a long time. Part of me wants to just embrace the changes, but I think the salary crap is so shady, and they've done all sorts of odd things over the years that made me feel very uncomfortable (cutting our pay to match furloughed staff, for example, and having the ability to do that written into our contracts!).

 

[dirtychinchilla]

I left my previous employer in the lurch after getting a better offer. I told them unless they can beat the £10k pay rise I was leaving in 2 weeks. They didn't, so I did.

I didn't think twice about it, once I'm gone it isn't my problem anymore.

I don't blame you at all. I'm hoping I can do that, although I'd like to spend time training up some people before I leave so they definitely aren't left in the lurch. Too much of my product group stuff is in my head only. I've been writing a handover for a while and I'm up to about 12 pages already.

I think the job I'm looking at will be 5-10k pay rise. However, I currently live about 3 miles from work and this other company is further away. But car and mileage allowance will hopefully make up for that.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Yeah, anybody tried to pull that with me and I'd have told them where to go and walked.

From what you say it sounds like the atmosphere at the company is great, but they're a **** employer who takes advantage of their team.

Get out, get out now.

I'm hoping to! In the mean time, I think I'm going to try and embrace the new changes, do my best work-wise, and hopefully be asked to join another company in the near future.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

New update: got an interview with the company I've been angling for on the 22nd March. 10 minute presentation, run through my CV etc.

I'm excited. The guy that I had the preliminary interview with seems to want me to join 100%, just got to get it past the MD and HR apparently. But I'm pretty square with HR as well as they had me do some testing, just need to see if I'm a cultural fit I guess.

My presentation skills are good...I'm giving three next week so they'd better be! I just need to decide on the content.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

There is a bit of a difference between an experienced staff member mentoring a new hire or two and being appointed to lead a new team. I get that the company has been naff here re: career development but I don't get why you've not been more proactive yourself - like how can you end up in a position where you think you're going to get a team leader position shortly etc..

It's worth pushing for these things proactively and setting expectations etc.. there is no harm in directly asking if you can lead the new team and pushing for an answer on that, especially if during your last review say a year ago you'd declared it as something you'd like to work towards. Too many people sit back and hope for things to sort themselves out or hope that simply doing good work will get them recognised etc.. it can do but it's better to be proactive about these things and to be open and vocal about having some ambition. Pushing for stuff at the last minute or indeed only once you've got a rival job offer in hand can also work but is again sub optimal vs actually just being proactive about it in the first place. IMO you should have had an answer on whether you'd be leading the team or not, there shouldn't have been a situation where you think something might be handed to you etc..

If I were you, at your new employer (assuming you get the job - best of luck with the interviews etc..) at your annual review, point at your past experience and openly declare that you'd like to take on more responsibility and work towards a management/team leader role (whatever is appropriate) and specifically ask to be given some new responsibility or time leading a project or similar in order to try and facilitate this. That's how plenty of people progress, lots of others just sit around doing their work and are otherwise reliant on chance or someone recognising their potential which might never happen.

There are three jobs above me - Directors, General Manager, and then a job I don't know the name of which is basically leaders of middle management. I won't be taking any of those jobs any time soon, although I really don't know if they see my new position as comparable. I wouldn't have thought so given the amount of experience those guys have. I have actually been quite proactive though, that's what got me to the job I'm in now. I just feel I'm at the end of that rope though.

I believe I am the new team lead. I'm just not really on board with the plan. This director is good with ideas, but less good with execution. But he's running this thing, so I know that at some point he'll be on to the next idea and I'll be left with a half formed team without clear guidance on what to do with it. And this is where I think I need more experience. I don't want to push for more with a job offer in hand. I'd like the job offer and to hand in my notice.

This new position should be more product management, less people management. I'm OK with people management at the moment - maybe not the best manager, definitely not the worst. But my product management skillset is lacking. I don't know how to push the product further out to market, so I'm really hoping this new company can help me learn that. I get what you're saying about relying on a chance or a new position. If I have to, if I don't get or don't like this new job, I will embrace the current one and ask for some training and explain the issues I have in much greater depth than I have done so far. There are benefits to my current position - it's 3 miles from my house, I have a fantastic work-life balance, I have great friendships with some of my colleagues, so if I can make it work that would be great. But then I think about the shady stuff htey've done - cutting our pay due to others being on furlough, not paying bonuses for seeminlgy abritrary reasons, no HR, dubious pay rises etc.

It definitely sounds like you've mentally checked out and have left already. I wouldn't consider staying even if they offer you £20k extra, nothing will change how the job and company make you feel and all the money in the world won't make you feel any better while at work. Good luck at the presentations.

I think I have. I have been feeling a little better this week, but I think that's just because my workload has increased. 20k probably would get me to stay, but then I'd feel like I wasn't adding enough value to actually be worth that!

Thank you.

I feel your pain with salary crap, im currently underpaid by more than (no this is no joke) 40k per year. Updated my linkedin profile and was quickly headhunted by 2 companies, one is around a 50k payrise and one is around 40k payrise. Both include substantial bonus also.

In final stage interviews with both and they are kinda fighting over me as I have quite a niche skillset.

I'll be having words with my current manager that they need to seriously revaluate the salary for this role. I won't consider a counter offer.

Best of luck to you!

That's amazing, best of luck!! I can't imagine how much a 50k raise would change you life...sounds like it'll be a lot. Really hope it all works out for you. If not, you can always lose some weight and get back to Gotham.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

@dirtychinchilla it sounds like you're similar age/ experience to me, I graduated 6 years ago and now a chartered engineer. It sounds like you're frustrated/underpaid and not enjoying the role. I have to say I've got no idea what a product manager is though! I work in construction/consultancy.

It sounds like you have a lot of responsibility for a package ~£50k or just under. I've just got a new job shy of that figure. I wanted more but tbh I was keen to leave and I think my marketplace is slightly deflated due to covid. You do know that for the bracket under £50k you pay 20%+12% NI and for >50k it's 40% +2% NI i.e. 10% extra/not as big a difference as you may believe. If you earned 55k, you could also salary sacrifice £5k to your pension then pay no tax in the upper bracket.

For your new role I'd always say inflate your salary that you want (dont just go for the same +£x K, add on the costs of the extra mileage, the risk amount etc)

I wouldnt take a counter offer unless they offer you more money/resolve your current issues. I think employers just count on people not wanting to move on due to "risk"/uncertainy etc.

For me in 6 years postgraduation I've lasted:
1st role - 18 months (moved due to location)
2nd role - 2.5 years (moved due to lack of work/projects)
3rd role - 2.5 years (various reasons but salary and them furloughing staff was one)
4th role - start imminently.

In every role thus far I've been glad I've moved and always received the highest salary jumps when moving. My imminent house move also aligns with new job!

re: moving house, if you speak to a broker some lenders will be OK with offering you a mortgage in your probation (if the role is similar, no massive inflation to earnings and you can demonstrate all your previous career earnings with no break). I'd want a good salary for working in the south west but thats just me!

Interesting. I actually work for a company that leads the heat interface market in the UK and therefore a huge advocate of heat networks, though my speciality is decentralized MVHR. Sounds like we may cross paths unless you're on the civil side?

That's my plan re: earning over 50k - just put it into my pension. I don't want to pay the extra tax and my pension definitely needs it. We're pretty comfortable with the household income as is so that's not a big deal. I just want to be paid what I'm worth! Having said that, I think I'd feel like I was an imposted if my worked turned round and gave me 55k plus bonus as I've really struggled to focus recently.

You're absolutely right. I imagine their conservative salaries rely on the fact that it's a nice company, in many ways, to work for and in this pandemic, people would prioritise job security over new opportunities. I'm going to say **** that.

You definitely have been busy. i guess that's the consultancy world for you!

I'm not going to mention the employment situation to my mortgage broker as there's currently nothing to tell. At the very worst, I'd be leaving this place in two months (notice period) to move to a higher paying job so that seems relatively risk-free to me.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Im more utilities (water/wastewater) so not really building services, i am a mech engineer though. (i think civils generally get paid less but tend to go into project management?)

I think all companies tend to think that employees get comfortable/won't leave, it's definetly not uncommon.

Yeah if you've already had offer accepted etc for a house and just need mortgage to clear I wouldn't mention it. I exchange later this week on new house hopefully and stsrt new job the week after. Not raising it to mortgage company as its an increase in pay.

Ah interesting. I think you're right about civil engineers...makes sense!

best of luck with the exchange and the new job

 

[dirtychinchilla]

How are you getting on?

I've had two offers, both of which are a 40k per year raise and double bonus - equates to well over 50k per year if you look at whole package. Can't believe I didn't spot this earlier to be honest, I've been getting done for the last 3 years.

Still weighing up which opportunity to take, my current company are going to really struggle to fill the position if they do not seriously up their game on salary.

Wow that’s amazing! What is it that you do? Are you accepting any of them?

They’ll just have to get someone who isn’t up to the job and will accept a low salary, I’d imagine.

Thanks for checking in. I have an interview on Monday, which is for a company that I was very keen in. But, one of my colleagues also interviewed for one of the jobs there (we aren’t competing, different technical expertise) and he said it’s a huge amount of travelling, which I’m not up for.

I was feeling terrible about the new team etc but on Thursday morning I had a call that an opportunity I’d created has come through, and we’ll be getting some projects from it. I’m not a salesman but I can create business for the company if I want to. That’s sparked an understanding of this new project team, and suddenly I feel really motivated again. I’m actually excited about the new project.

So, real turn around and honestly, I feel good. I’ll do the interview, question them more on the travelling, and hopefully get an offer. Then I’ll have to decide what to do with it.

My boss did call me the other day and said, “I can see your CV is still up. Should we be worried I?” I fobbed him off a bit and made some points about salary and lack of guidance. Hopefully they’ll take root at some point, particularly if I receive a competing offer. I specifically told him their salaries aren’t competitive for example.

So the next week will be interesting…having said that, we’re moving house on Wednesday so that’s my real focus right now.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Why don't you sit down and have a chat with them?

Sorry but it just seems ridiculous that you're coming out with comments about how you think you might be leading a new team but weren't sure etc.. you've got to push for these things sometimes and make things clear to others too RE: expectations, salary goals etc... much better to be proactive about this stuff.

there is literally nothing wrong with arranging a meeting and putting the onus on them - asking for some promotion or new responsibility, telling them what your salary objectives are, what you'd like to make next year and the year after etc.. and push them for a pay rise now if you're underpaid. Don't just be fobbed off, have the meeting, speak to them and then follow up - like a week or two later send an e-mail or have another conversation and get a firm answer etc..

I am talking to them, but that doesn't mean that they always listen. I am trying to be proactive and I've challenged them on salary expections, for example, a number of times.

The only positions above me in this company really are directors, GM, and then a couple of heads of business. I'm not ready for any of those roles.

I'm working on it all

I work in DevOps

Yes I've made a decision on which offer to pursue, however I would probably accept a matching counter offer on reflection as my decision to look elsewhere is obviously motivated by finances - not taking away that they are also good opportunities.

I guess the company hasn't really looked into the market rate for the role I am in. My boss and I have a very good relationship and I am an integral part of my team. She is aware of this huge discrepancy also, but its quite difficult to ask HR for such an increase!

Anyhoo, I have very good options either way and I'll have my decision made by Monday evening.

Very good, is that interesting? I know nothing about it unfortunately.

Should you stay at a company that has cronically underpaid you though? I see that as them not having good perception of your value. Best of luck anyway!

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Well that’s good, sounds like it’ll turn out very positively for you. I’d be excited!

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Apologies for derailing your thread btw!

I think you have to look at circumstances whether you accept a counter offer. If you're at a small company where the owners / directors deal with you directly and your salary, I'd be concerned accepying a counter as I would feel my card is marked.

At larger places (my current company is 10000+ staff), I wouldn't be as concerned as you're probably just a small fish.

That’s quite alright! It was too much about me anyway.

Yeah I work for a company of maybe 100 so I have a close relationship with the directors.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

That’s great that you could have an open and honeys conversation. I hate burning bridges so that is incredibly appealing to me.

Just had an interview at the prospective company. Seems decent, seems like quite an intense situation and they’re desperately in need of a bigger team. They really want me to manage my most hated competitor, but there is another job which is the one I’m interested in. It was quite far away, which I wasn’t keen on, and couldn’t tell me yet what new policies will be after the 12th April.

Had an email from my current workplace today saying that from the 12th April, everyone must be in the office. Completely backwards. I guess, for me, it’s so that I engage with this enormous new team I have. Nuts. I really enjoy working from home so it’s not ideal.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

That seems very short sighted. It smacks of micromanagement and someone feeling powerless without people to order around. The idea of not even doing a phased return or having mixed days with some in and some out is likely to put the backs up of a lot of people. I’ll ions have yet to have the vaccine and really should still be social distancing, especially at work where door handles, toilet handles and items in the kitchen are going to be touched dozens of times a day. It’s asking for an outbreak tbh.

Good point about the outbreak. I’m vaccinated but only because I’m at risk. The toilets and kitchen are what bother me most. We can apply to be in the office part time with a “legitimate” reason, but I know why they’ve done it and I’m a big part of it for my part of the office. This new team I mentioned, they’re all engineers fresh out of uni and I have to look after them. They want us (me) in the office to ensure that they’re learning. I have only been on the office once in about 6 months, hence why I’m the target.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Update: had the interview on Monday. It went well, but they want me for the job which would involve me being the product manager for my most hated competitor, which I simply won't do. They have another opening, but I don't know whether they want me for that. I get the feeling that they have some more qualified candidates, so watch this space I guess!

We moved house on Thursday, so that's taken up most of my mental space, and finally seeing my family again, which has been lovely.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

OP: Always look after yourself. You don't owe the company anything.

I am. Work seems to have become a very confusing place recent. Had one person move on and another made redundant, both long term and seemingly vital staff. I’m going to keep looking. Got a recruiter very much on my side.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Another thing to consider is don't trust the recruiters either. They just want someone to the fill a position for their cut .

I’m aware of that, don’t worry he’s not your normal recruiter from my perspective. Self employed and has placed loads of guys all over the place in my industry, which he seems to hit up on a regular basis. When I’ve put my foot down about certain things he’s respected it completely. Just asks that I keep an open mind basically.