Consistently sometimes? How does that work?
He could have cured cancer that weekend, he still cheated.
Belgium Grand Prix 2013, Spa-Francorchamps - Race 11/19
- Thread starter Duke
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Consistently sometimes? How does that work?
He could have cured cancer that weekend, he still cheated.
Soldato
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I assume you realise that sometimes a car doesn't directly match the exact ability of a driver?
You said it yourself
That car was qualifying 1.5 seconds off the pace and sometimes not even making it into Q3 and yet he led the championship with it after a few races.
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Isn't it a widely held opinion that McLaren has the best car last year? And it was being driven by 2 WDC's.
Yet.... Vettel still won?
(Jesus, all that from a guy who doesn't like him)
I think most people will agree that in 2010 and 2011 the RBR was the fastest car on the grid. The 2010 WDC was only as close as it was because the car was a bit unreliable and Webber was taking points out of Seb as well as Alonso and Hamilton.
2011 was a complete whitewash where Vettel, his car and the team on his side of the garage operated incredibly consistently.
Last year, while the McLaren was faster than the RBR for the majority of the season, the team did everything they could to hinder Hamilton's chances (obviously not deliberately).
This year, Mercedes have produced a faster car over a single lap than the RBR but it hasn't transferred to race pace.
All the while Alonso has been dragging a 'dog' of a Ferrari into positions it had no right being in and last year Kimi brought an extremely consistent (if not exceptionally quick) style of racing into the mix.
A driver can only do their best with the equipment they are given and in that respect Vettel is almost flawless.
Unfortunately for Vettel (and where the doubt lies) is that for the last three seasons (and this one) he has been 'lucky' enough to have the best equipment and when he hasn't, other factors have still swung in his favour.
Everyone assumes that if Hamilton or Alonso had been in the RBR for the last three years it would be them with three (or four) WDCs and it's questionable where Vettel would have finished in the Ferrari or the McLaren or the Lotus or the Mercedes.
I don't dislike him and as I said, for getting the best out of the equipment you're given he can't do much more but it always feels like when Vettel wins it's by default and if any other driver wins they've actually 'achieved' something, simply by beating him in that car.
Whether that's fair or not is another matter entirely.
Something can't happen constantly and happen sometimes. Its one or the other. He's either constantly been in a bad car, or he's sometimes been in a bad car. Engrish sense make it not does
Not sure why you posted a gif from Spain 2013 to support your claim that he was brilliant all weekend at the 2008 Singapore GP?
Not sure why you posted a gif from Spain 2013 to support your claim that he was brilliant all weekend at the 2008 Singapore GP?
Soldato
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But you can drive to a consistent standard in an inconsistent car or level of cars, can you not?Something can't happen constantly and happen sometimes. Its one or the other. He's either constantly been in a bad car, or he's sometimes been in a bad car. Engrish sense make it not does
Just suggesting that whatever I posted about it, or likely much else, you'd be unmoving.
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@irish Tom. I just think that he has done something to answer each of the excuses used to claim he is no good. Sure the cars good, but Webber has had it too and he hasn't won 4 championships. And being in the best car has played a part in more WDC than not. I think people are just making up reasons to mark him down now. The previous suggestion that he should only just win to be considered good, and that dominating meant he was rubbish is utterly bizarre.
I'd hope you performance would improve if the car does.
And unmoving on what? The fact he cheated? Dam right.
Soldato
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I'd hope results would improve, but individual performance shouldn't be judged on the performance of the car. I thought Rosberg was one of the drivers of the season in 2009, but the results showed sod all.
Singapore 2008 was the clearest case of a driver outperforming a car I'd seen since Schumacher in Hungary 1998, but Schumacher did it for a stint. Alonso did it over 5 sessions.
I'm not going to defend the antics of the team that race, and if he had any knowledge of that then shame on him, but I can see see beyond the flashing amber lights and see the performance underneath.
Singapore 2008 was the clearest case of a driver outperforming a car I'd seen since Schumacher in Hungary 1998, but Schumacher did it for a stint. Alonso did it over 5 sessions.
I'm not going to defend the antics of the team that race, and if he had any knowledge of that then shame on him, but I can see see beyond the flashing amber lights and see the performance underneath.
I know it sounds backwards but there is some logic to it.
When anyone else wins it's rarely by sailing from lights to flag and even rarer that it's by a 30-odd second margin.
Hamilton in Hungary flatters him somewhat thanks to Button holding the rest of the pack up for so long.
So the question is: is it Vettel's innate skill that allows him to consistently stick the car on pole, manage the DRS gap and cruise into the sunset race after race; is it down to the rapid car or is it a bit of both?
Are we suggesting that Vettel in this year's Mercedes would be able to do the same thing; despite the fact that even with so many pole positions both cars tend to drop back down the grid during the first few laps?
Would Vettel have won the WDC last year in the McLaren if the same mechanical and team failures had befallen him?
Are we suggesting that given the RBR from the last three years Hamilton or Alonso would be unable to replicate the same pole/lights/flag performances that we have seen of Vettel.
Would Vettel be getting the same or better results than Alonso in the Ferrari?
I know this is all hypothetical 'what-ifs' and the answers are subjective.
I'm not suggesting Vettel is a poor driver in a great car, I'm suggesting he's a very good driver in a great car but I'm not convinced that makes him a better driver than Hamilton or Alonso but it might make the three of them equal…
When anyone else wins it's rarely by sailing from lights to flag and even rarer that it's by a 30-odd second margin.
Hamilton in Hungary flatters him somewhat thanks to Button holding the rest of the pack up for so long.
So the question is: is it Vettel's innate skill that allows him to consistently stick the car on pole, manage the DRS gap and cruise into the sunset race after race; is it down to the rapid car or is it a bit of both?
Are we suggesting that Vettel in this year's Mercedes would be able to do the same thing; despite the fact that even with so many pole positions both cars tend to drop back down the grid during the first few laps?
Would Vettel have won the WDC last year in the McLaren if the same mechanical and team failures had befallen him?
Are we suggesting that given the RBR from the last three years Hamilton or Alonso would be unable to replicate the same pole/lights/flag performances that we have seen of Vettel.
Would Vettel be getting the same or better results than Alonso in the Ferrari?
I know this is all hypothetical 'what-ifs' and the answers are subjective.
I'm not suggesting Vettel is a poor driver in a great car, I'm suggesting he's a very good driver in a great car but I'm not convinced that makes him a better driver than Hamilton or Alonso but it might make the three of them equal…
Just to add to that:
The reason people might consider Alonso the best of the three is as follows…
Hamilton is quick over a single lap but has a tendency to use up his tyres and, as we saw in 2011, he can be rather hot headed.
Vettel is quick, usually very consistent but has cracked under pressure on a few occasions and isn't always clean when racing wheel to wheel.
Alonso is calm, consistent and quick – he just hasn't had the car to match the driver over the last few years…
Again it's all subjective.
The reason people might consider Alonso the best of the three is as follows…
Hamilton is quick over a single lap but has a tendency to use up his tyres and, as we saw in 2011, he can be rather hot headed.
Vettel is quick, usually very consistent but has cracked under pressure on a few occasions and isn't always clean when racing wheel to wheel.
Alonso is calm, consistent and quick – he just hasn't had the car to match the driver over the last few years…
Again it's all subjective.
Soldato
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Yeah, I think both Hamilton and Vettel are faster than Alonso—we know Hamilton could at least equal him (I do think Hamilton has lost some of the rawness that helped show some of that speed though)—but Alonso is quick and relentless. He never gives up (even when he said he "gave up" over the radio once (Korea 2011?) he once more closed the gap to the car he was following and hassled them.
I don't think Alonso has had a rubbish car as people always seem to make out, you can't go from 10th to 2nd if you don't have a quick car no matter how good you can drive
This.
And on the other side, Vettel pulled away from Hamilton and Alonso at over 1 second a lap, but the RBR is not 1 second a lap faster than the Ferrari or the Mercedes.
Its very very easy to just attribute all performance (or lack of) to the car when making a case for or against a driver. I.e. Alonso is great because he has done well in a poor car, while Vettel is pants because he has done well in a brilliant car. Its all about massaging the view to fit your opinion. But there comes a point where you have to admit defeat and just accept you don't win 3 (4) titles without being pretty good.
I don't get the consistent calm and relentless claims either. This is a guy who blackmailed his boss, sabotaged his team mates qualifying out of spite, and had such a turn around when the pressure was on half way through last year that you could be mistaken to think him and Massa had swapped cars. From a display of brilliance at the start of last year, he needed Felipe "should have been sacked he's so rubbish" Massa to hand him race places and grid positions in order to remain in the title fight to the end.
Other drivers have their faults too, some of them considerably greater (I imagine Hamilton would erase 2011 from his memory if he could), but by Alonso is certainly not the calm consistent driving Buddah people make him out to be.
Caporegime
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I always find it funny when people talk about qualifying pace of a car and decide arbitrarily to base all decisions in race performance on it.
Alonso is the best because he had a dog of a car for years... BS, the Ferrari over the past 5 years has EASILY been the second best race day car, easily, unquestionable. Last season I'd say it was Mclaren and Hamilton consistently outperformed Alonso BUT for his team screwing him. Half of the times Alonso got past Hamilton it was because he was in the pits doing a 10 second stop or being utterly screwed via tactical decisions of the team.
ALonso is no question very good but, this year I think he's been poor. He had a wing hanging off his car and CHOSE to stay out, and went down two high downforce long straights with his foot to the floor increasing the load. He completely ignored the chance to fix his wing or protect it down the previous straight. That was nothing short of an utterly rookie mistake, infact, I don't think rookies would be excused for doing that, it was one of the most fundamentally stupid things I've seen a driver do in years. With 2 laps to go and in first with a big gap.... maybe, first lap, never in a million years. Likewise at Monaco IIRC he let himself be passed a couple times painfully easily and he's done that at one or two other races.
Fact is the Ferrari has been by a massive, stonking margin(with Massa doing it consistently also) the best car off the grid. They qualify poorly, are epic off the grid and then have good race pace. Alonso AND Massa usually pass a bunch of people before the first corner and Alonso usually gets 1-2 more usually via having simply a faster car than say the Merc's this year.
I think the majority of drivers would be able to match Alonso's starts(massa has) and despite what Quali pace suggests outside of a small number of races the Ferrari has had superb race pace in the past 4 years. It's not a RBR, sure, but in no way has he ever had a poor car. Poor qualifying car... maybe, would be very interesting to see Vettel or Hamilton in that Ferrari and see what they can do, but poor race car, not even a little. Every car, including the RBR has bad tracks where it sucks balls. Ferrari has in most seasons been the second fastest car consistently across the season.
I think Alonso/Vettel switching teams or maybe even being in the same team would be incredibly interesting. Would Alonso match Vettel in qualifying, would Vettel be able to do the same as Alonso in terms of passing people on the track, starting off the grid. I can't see it happening and it wouldn't even matter next year, had it happened this year it would have been fantastic to compare them.
Ultimately I think its hard to say anything beyond Hamilton/Vettel/Alonso are the best drivers in F1 right now, who is the best based on different cars is difficult to say. But suggesting the Ferrari is a dog of a car is laughably ignorant of the facts. We can see the race pace of that car, and in every practice session and race last year the fact its race pace and quali pace were utterly unconnected was clear as day, and the same is true this year. This season has made me think less of Alonso as some of the cheap places he's given back in tougher races like Monaco were very lazy mistakes. There was a reason Alonso led the championship for much of last year and wasn't far from winning it, and that reason is not that the Ferrari was a dog of a car.
Rosberg listed as the 4th best driver.... lol, he is being destroyed by Hamilton, demolished in qualifying, spanked in consistent podiums and in general points, but for a couple of flukes he would be absolutely miles behind on points. Rosberg isn't in the same league as hamilton.
Alonso is the best because he had a dog of a car for years... BS, the Ferrari over the past 5 years has EASILY been the second best race day car, easily, unquestionable. Last season I'd say it was Mclaren and Hamilton consistently outperformed Alonso BUT for his team screwing him. Half of the times Alonso got past Hamilton it was because he was in the pits doing a 10 second stop or being utterly screwed via tactical decisions of the team.
ALonso is no question very good but, this year I think he's been poor. He had a wing hanging off his car and CHOSE to stay out, and went down two high downforce long straights with his foot to the floor increasing the load. He completely ignored the chance to fix his wing or protect it down the previous straight. That was nothing short of an utterly rookie mistake, infact, I don't think rookies would be excused for doing that, it was one of the most fundamentally stupid things I've seen a driver do in years. With 2 laps to go and in first with a big gap.... maybe, first lap, never in a million years. Likewise at Monaco IIRC he let himself be passed a couple times painfully easily and he's done that at one or two other races.
Fact is the Ferrari has been by a massive, stonking margin(with Massa doing it consistently also) the best car off the grid. They qualify poorly, are epic off the grid and then have good race pace. Alonso AND Massa usually pass a bunch of people before the first corner and Alonso usually gets 1-2 more usually via having simply a faster car than say the Merc's this year.
I think the majority of drivers would be able to match Alonso's starts(massa has) and despite what Quali pace suggests outside of a small number of races the Ferrari has had superb race pace in the past 4 years. It's not a RBR, sure, but in no way has he ever had a poor car. Poor qualifying car... maybe, would be very interesting to see Vettel or Hamilton in that Ferrari and see what they can do, but poor race car, not even a little. Every car, including the RBR has bad tracks where it sucks balls. Ferrari has in most seasons been the second fastest car consistently across the season.
I think Alonso/Vettel switching teams or maybe even being in the same team would be incredibly interesting. Would Alonso match Vettel in qualifying, would Vettel be able to do the same as Alonso in terms of passing people on the track, starting off the grid. I can't see it happening and it wouldn't even matter next year, had it happened this year it would have been fantastic to compare them.
Ultimately I think its hard to say anything beyond Hamilton/Vettel/Alonso are the best drivers in F1 right now, who is the best based on different cars is difficult to say. But suggesting the Ferrari is a dog of a car is laughably ignorant of the facts. We can see the race pace of that car, and in every practice session and race last year the fact its race pace and quali pace were utterly unconnected was clear as day, and the same is true this year. This season has made me think less of Alonso as some of the cheap places he's given back in tougher races like Monaco were very lazy mistakes. There was a reason Alonso led the championship for much of last year and wasn't far from winning it, and that reason is not that the Ferrari was a dog of a car.
Rosberg listed as the 4th best driver.... lol, he is being destroyed by Hamilton, demolished in qualifying, spanked in consistent podiums and in general points, but for a couple of flukes he would be absolutely miles behind on points. Rosberg isn't in the same league as hamilton.
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I think you've misread that, he said Alonso's consistency in a sometimes poor car not that he was consistently driving a sometimes poor car
A driver can perform with consistency despite driving a car that is sometimes off the pace. It is through this ability that a driver maintains decent points scoring even on the weekends that the car just doesn't have what it takes to challenge for a win. Or in Alonso's case, say a season at Renault where the car was a dog but he was hugely outperforming team mates and achieving results you wouldn't expect of the car.
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Interesting how Hamilton let Alonso passed to get the DRS, but ballsed it up and couldn't pass him after that
Interesting how Hamilton let Alonso passed to get the DRS, but ballsed it up and couldn't pass him after that
Yeah think he mentioned it after the race when the three of them were in that room putting the caps on etc.