Best HD video? GF2? NEX5? other?

[Mud]

Is anyone able to give me the finer points of which cameras are best for video? This is just home movie use (incoming kid), but I want quality that will last. I've mentioned the Panasonic GF2 and Sony NEX5 in the title, but frankly I'm not overly impressed with the example videos I've seen...they're a bit jittery/juddery, though I don't know if this is down to encoding for web use. Stationary objects look ok, but moving objects seem to degrade massively. I'm not tied to the m4/3 style bodies, though I do like their size. I'd like 720p60, and 1080p at a framerate that divides evenly into typical 120/240Hz TV refresh rates (so probably 24, 30 or 60).

If the reality is a dedicated camcorder will give significantly better results, what should I look at? I've steered away from DSLRs a bit here, but if the best option really is a 5dmkII (with a lens adapter to use my Nikon glass) then I may spring for that. I wasn't impressed with D300s video, I've had and sold that body. I'd rather not spend DSLR money, but I don't like half measures

I've just realised I haven't researched the D3100 - I'll look into that, but any help is much appreciated.

 

[Mud]

I'll look at the D7000, must admit it's more than I wanted to spend though. Got the 24/1.4 already...the DOF at f/1.4, even at 24mm is tiny though!

From what I'm seeing the D3100 doesn't wow. Lack of manual controls is annoying and I really hate the AF seeking, so I think I'll be manually focusing. I'd rather have a deep depth of field than a narrow seeky one!

I guess I may have to research cheaper Canon DSLR bodies, but I was hoping that motion was handled better by non-DSLR sensors. From what I've seen thus far maybe motion is just handled uniformly badly across the field :|

 

[Mud]

If you are going for dedicated camcorder then I'd suggest the Canon Legria range. I have the tape based HV40 which is excellent.

With cheap storage now I'd probably go for something like the HF S21 which is flash memory based.

Will do diligence on those, thanks

e: good call, the HF S21 is the new high water mark - really stunning picture quality and handles motion well.

 

[Mud]

If you are going for dedicated camcorder then I'd suggest the Canon Legria range. I have the tape based HV40 which is excellent.

With cheap storage now I'd probably go for something like the HF S21 which is flash memory based.

After doing some research I think I'll go for the Panasonic HDC-TM700, the HF S21 ended up second on my shortlist. Here's a group review that was helpful to me; they both appear excellent, but the Panasonic pushes 1080p50, is cheaper, and has a standard hotshoe accessory mount (I think), so although I'd have preferred the bigger screen on the Canon I think my choice is made

It is a bit much to spend...

The 24/1.4 should give a depth of field of about 1m when focused on something 3m away wide open on a DX sensor (accuracy of calculations may be questionable). That's not too terrible as it gives you a chance to adjust focus, stop down to f/2.8 and it'll be about 2m.

The 24/1.4 is a bit tricky to get a handle on because the focusing scale jumps from 1m to infinity, but the DOF is narrow enough that it taxes the AF (on FX anyway). Must admit to not having used it much at f/2.8, I'm usually at f/1.4-2, or f/8.

 

[Mud]

Nikon HDSLRs suffer from really bad rolling shutter. If you do want a DSLR for video, then look at Canon 550D for budget. Baring in mind that your Nikon lenses will only be manual focus if you can deal with constantly focusing for your home movies. But every single Nikon video I've seen has had really bad rolling shutter and jello effect. Okay so every DSLR gets it, but Canons seem to be a lot better with rolling shutter distortion.

Rolling shutter is noticeable when handheld and at anything around 50mm or larger. Wide angle lenses you don't notice the rolling shutter as badly. The rolling shutter will be worse on the 5dmk2, because the sensor is much larger. You could always get a rig for it, but thats obviously a bit much.

Depends what your budget is really and what sort of video you'd like. Personally I shoot with a 550D and I use it for everything including videos of the family. It's a lovely all round camera, and I am now a complete Canon convert after being with Nikon for 4 years.

Phillip Bloom blogs with a Canon S95. It's a usual compact camera but even has an f/2 lens built in, so you've got a nice fast lens there and the video quality looks pretty good, all in a compact.

Video example of him using one here: http://vimeo.com/16864497

edit: another lovely example here http://vimeo.com/15151600

Thanks for the input, but I think I've gone off DSLR video - if I wanted shallow DOF and super low-light performance it'd be a no-brainer, but it's not what I want here and the jittery/judderiness (in part because of the rolling shutter as you mentioned) makes the videos look 'unsettled' to me. A/B'ing video from 'proper' camcorders and video from cameras has only confirmed my suspicions here.

The S95 is interesting...I figured a smaller sensor would likely give better motion handling. Now that I've seen the 1080p50/60 output from the HDC-TM700 (at bitrates that exceed AVCHD spec!) I'm not sure I'll be able to go for anything less though

 

[Mud]

I second this. The Legria range is excellent. I used to have a HV30 and it was an excellent camera. I picked up a Legria HF S10 from eBay for £530 back in May, fantastic camera, produces excellent video quality and the built in 32gb of memory is handy too.

EDIT: Have to say though that the Panasonic looks very nice, seems camcorders are progressing faster than I thought! I'd expect Canon to come out with something similar soon albeit at an overinflated price!

The Legria HF S21 is already more expensive than the TM700!

Here's some (spooled down) video from the Panasonic: http://vimeo.com/17283227

 

[Mud]

Well I ordered the panasonic...still waiting on something from Nikon that will make the most of my existing lenses. First manufacturer to come out with a camcorder with 24mm or 35mm sensor that accepts SLR lenses should make some money

 

[Mud]

Sony are coming close...

They've stuck the NEX5 sensor into one... with interchangeable lenses.

Yep, shame video from the NEX5 is juddery mush...at least from the videos I've seen.

I'm slightly gutted that the Panasonic HDC TM700 I've ordered is 'only' 1080p50 (European market)...but all the framerates seem like a giant compromise, so I don't think I'll be cancelling the order.

 

[Mud]

I been hearing some good things about Panasonic GH1, video on that is meant to be great and some good examples on Vimeo. Can also be had relatively cheap compared to other cameras, I've seen bodies sell for £300.

I've heard/read that the GH2 is significantly better. I've made my bed now though

 

[Mud]

The GH2 produces the quality video of any hybrid camera. Comparable to that of the RED film cameras which cost $18,000. The 5D mkII is excellent, but the Gh1 and GH2 are better for video. And a LOT cheaper.

Quality order -
GH2 > Gh1> 5D mkII > 7D // canon 550d

I hope you haven't placed an order yet. The GH2 is a lot cheaper and comes with an excellent video optimised lens with a stepless aperture - 14-140mm.

Paying about £1,200 for the GH2 with the 14-140mm is great as the lens cost £600 alone.

Also the GH2 has an extra tele conversion feature which is out standing. It allows you to zoom (crop) to the centre of the frame and film
video without any quality loss. Zooming as up to 2.8 times. So a 100mm lens can effectively film at 100mm AND 280mm without any quality loss.

I've ordered the Panasonic HDC TM700, and looking at the price of the GH2 I don't regret it at all! The GH2 looks good, but I'd rather have camcorder ergonomics and 50p than another camera body. The deep DOF really doesn't hurt for my application either.

To be clear, when I wrote "I've heard/read that the GH2 is significantly better", I was referring to the GH1. The TM700 I've ordered trumped everything.

 

[Mud]

Neutral density filters

Nice video, hadn't seen that one. Here's a video that helped convince me camcorders handle motion better:

It's two camcorders, but there's a reason you don't see much violent panning like that in the example videos from cameras. The Leica lens on the TM700 opens to f/1.5, which helps compensate for the piddly sensor size. To be honest I haven't looked into the NDs in the TM700, but I've used them on my friend's XH-A1. Faff-free is key, as much as I'd like to play cinematographer I barely get to play photographer sometimes, and the former seems to be 100x the time investment.

 

[Mud]

No, I'm waiting on stock (expected 14th). I don't really want to reorder elsewhere as I got the cheapest price I could from a large retailer, but the wait is beginning to grate. Here's a review to keep you going.

 

[Mud]

have you had the camera delivered yet? I'm in the market for my first camcorder. If I'm honest, I've been looking at the 600 series instead with just a few features missing from the 700...but, if panasonic do what they usually do and bring new models out in a few months, I'm hoping these will come down a little.

I think I see the problem - the hdc tm900 has just been announced...but doesn't seem to be available anywhere. I'm not seeing much improvement on the tm700 (though I'm not basing that on much), and it'll probably cost significantly more...but it does allow you to attach a 3D lens. Now I'm confused again.

e: order killed - the RRP is the same, so despite the fact I'd ordered at a few hundred pounds below RRP and there's currently nowhere listing the TM900, I'll roll the dice. Option of 3D is fun, and the 3" 200K pixel screen to 3.5" 400K pixel screen sounds worthwhile (was one of the things the Canon Legria was winning on).

In the last month I've had the 3 below

Canon 60D
Sony A55
Nikon 7000

All very good cameras and all have there little niggles and if you could role the 3 together you would have a wicked camera, Flip screen of the 60D, auto focus of the Sony A55 and the ISO focus points of the D7000 but but decided on the 5DMK2 and selling my Nikon D3 and moving over to Canon so I have a all in one solution, will be adding the follow focus system to it and a good fluid head for my Gitzo tripod.

Poor D3, but needs must I guess. You'll miss it

 

[Mud]

Its funny since I have been playing round with the smaller cameras picking up my D3 with the 24-70 it feel like a brick (but not in a good way), but yes i will miss it

I haven't handled a D3/D3s/D3x, but I know the heft of my D700 well. Stick a 50/1.4 on it and keep it as a sidearm

 

[Mud]

It's not actually much/any worse than the D700 in my view, it's heavier but there's more camera too so it feels kinda justified. Then again, I've never gone for a stroll with a D3s around my neck...let alone with the 24-70 on it...

I've used the D300s/D700 with a grip which is marginally bigger than a pro body (not sure about weight), but I chose the D700 over a used D3 because I like ungripped bodies. Same reason I haven't bought a 24-70...hefty for a poxy f/2.8.

 

[Mud]

I did notice the release of the 800/900 series camera's....not sure I'd ever want to record 3d just yet, but if they cost the same.....?!

Have you thought about the editing of 50p recordings? what software you going to use?

The RRP on the TM900 is the same as that of the TM700...but of course I wasn't going to pay RRP for the TM700. Ultimately I suppose I'm willing to pay close to RRP for the TM900, for the sake of the £200 difference I want the better screen and 3D option, but once you've totted on the lens it starts sounding like double the money There's one place I can see selling the 3D lens and it seems to be around the £450 mark. I worry a bit about legacy support for 3D (think 20 years from now...), 1080p50 should be more than enough for my needs! rolleyes

I've got a Core i7 860 with 8GB of RAM and a Vertex 2E 120GB SSD...I'm hoping that'll be adequate hardware. Not sure about software yet, I've not edited video before (well...Windows Movie Maker, which I'm assuming isn't going to cut it).

 

[Mud]

I don't think hardware will be a problem, but reading all the forums, it seems software is the problem as very few (if any) can edit the 50p recordings.

I think I'm hoping the newer cameras will bring the 700 down a little more.

I would definitely consider a TM700 if the price comes down a little...but knowing that the TM900 is looming takes the shine off the TM700 a little (and I mean a little...they're damn-near the same camera). Fickle, I know.

Which forums are you reading? I should bone up.

 

[Mud]

Will have a look, ta.

 

[Mud]

Oh no, now I'll have to buy a bluray player!

I think I'll keep the files PC-bound for the time being, assuming my HTPC has the grunt! Looks like a long tutorial, will be sure to read it properly if I have to

 

[Mud]

I see one shop now listing the hdc tm900 at £849, hs900 at £1029 and the sd900 at £769.

e: and the 3D lens is £249

e2: rang them up, due first week of Feb apparently. Price seems fair, so I'll preorder.