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Blackwell gpus

Anyway, I'm hopping for 4080 performance at around $499 to help drive the RT/PT movement forward, but I fear I may be day dreaming. :)
Have you seen recent AMD talk about RT and AI improvements, their cooperation with Sony on that field and what they plan for the future? I found it very interesting when they started talking about memory speeds and that even L2 is way too slow to have properly fast RT (simplifying), then the whole design of giving each block its own practically L1 cache to be fast enough when combining all of them together. Point being, even relatively cheap GPUs in consoles might have it much faster than it currently is possible on 4090 for example, but new design of the chip is needed. Also, vRAM speed doesn't matter as much for RT, as it itself is way too slow even in fastest current version anyway - hundreds of TB/s is needed. Makes me wonder if something similar we will see from Nvidia. Though, it all sounded like it would be in 9k series from AMD and possibly also 6k+ series from Nvidia, whereas coming now generation might still be without big changes here. We'll see soon enough.
 
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Those prices aren't going to be any help in lowering secondary market prices (partially by design, I expect). A used 4080 Super that costs £800 today is still going to cost near £800 after this launch.
Perfect as maybe my 4090 will go for more than I got it (great for AI and work after all!), so I could switch to something like 5070ti or equivalent from AMD for half the price ;)
 
are those eur prices inclusive of vat?
i would think so as that would mesh up with what we usually see with early price leaks where SRP/RRP includes VAT and MSRP doesn't include US Sales tax (7-11% depending on State and sometimes city). In the UK, we can normally expect dollar:pound parity, so going by this £1200 for 5080, £2000 for 5090 -- right smack on target for what most are guessing.

That said, I haven't seen the actual "leak" here, just some yokel on twitter, so who knows if this is what will cone to be.
 
i just went through the tweet on X, its based on the article published by videocardz yesterday, based on that alone its $1.2k for 5080 and $2.5 k+ for 5090 before VAT -- old news
 
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Have you seen recent AMD talk about RT and AI improvements, their cooperation with Sony on that field and what they plan for the future? I found it very interesting when they started talking about memory speeds and that even L2 is way too slow to have properly fast RT (simplifying), then the whole design of giving each block its own practically L1 cache to be fast enough when combining all of them together. Point being, even relatively cheap GPUs in consoles might have it much faster than it currently is possible on 4090 for example, but new design of the chip is needed. Also, vRAM speed doesn't matter as much for RT, as it itself is way too slow even in fastest current version anyway - hundreds of TB/s is needed. Makes me wonder if something similar we will see from Nvidia. Though, it all sounded like it would be in 9k series from AMD and possibly also 6k+ series from Nvidia, whereas coming now generation might still be without big changes here. We'll see soon enough.

I haven't, only partially the PS5 Pro Technical Seminar which (to the point I was it) was reinforcing upscalers and frame generation alongside RT, meaning they're tech that will stick around.

No matter what's the approach, hopefully they'll get it implemented soon.
 
Cheaper nodes, less complex cards. Cheap credit only explains it partially.

Were the nodes really cheaper back then? (If so, what made the prices go up?)
Were the cards really less complex? I mean, compared to now they were definitely more simple but I'm pretty sure for the tech we had back then they were cutting edge tech and in no way 'simple'.

I mean, I could keep badgering you with questions each time you answer but we'll cut to the end:

Why is is it only PC components that get more expensive as tech advances in the whole entirety of the history of humanity and why did it only start going up about 10 years ago? Every other line of technology gets cheaper as we progress, but for some reason not for this one space... Ultimately I don't know the answer, but I suspect it's more about shareholders and driving up stock prices than any other factor.

I really don't mean to pick on you btw; you just happened to air the sentiment/excuse about pricing that irks me somewhat as it just handwaves away all responsibility like it's just some law of nature that prices are higher and there's nothing that we or corporations could do about it - when the base reality is it's us and the corporations that set the prices for EVERYTHING at every level of the process.
 
Were the nodes really cheaper back then? (If so, what made the prices go up?)
Were the cards really less complex? I mean, compared to now they were definitely more simple but I'm pretty sure for the tech we had back then they were cutting edge tech and in no way 'simple'.

I mean, I could keep badgering you with questions each time you answer but we'll cut to the end:

Why is is it only PC components that get more expensive as tech advances in the whole entirety of the history of humanity and why did it only start going up about 10 years ago? Every other line of technology gets cheaper as we progress, but for some reason not for this one space... Ultimately I don't know the answer, but I suspect it's more about shareholders and driving up stock prices than any other factor.

I really don't mean to pick on you btw; you just happened to air the sentiment/excuse about pricing that irks me somewhat as it just handwaves away all responsibility like it's just some law of nature that prices are higher and there's nothing that we or corporations could do about it - when the base reality is it's us and the corporations that set the prices for EVERYTHING at every level of the process.

Stuff in general got more expensive after the pandemic.

Certain components like GPUs got more expensive in waves due to crypto, natural disasters (the flooding that affected the HDD manufacturing if I'm not mistaken), but oversupply got prices cheaper for a while (RAM/SSD), etc.

I think laptops were more decently priced (well, leaving aside the pandemic waves) as you couldn't print money like you've could on a GPU. Now, for the same amount I've payed on my mobile phone (less than 400 euros), I can get a 512GB SSD, 16GB RAM and Ryzen 7520U, IPS laptop which should be decent for office and the like. Could be wrong, but at least in my country I don't think there were better priced options in the past.

On the CPU side, ignoring the overpriced 9800x3d, I could get a 5700x3d for about 240 euros or a 5700 for 132 euros.

But going back to nVIDIA and GPUs, for around 32 euros more than I've payed for the rtx2080 almost six years ago, I can get a 4070ti which (as per TPU) is 191% faster. Yeah, 2080 ($699) was expensive, but only $100 more expensive than the 1080. ($599)

So comparing how much performance you'd get from older products, excluding the naming, is not that bad. Not great, not terrible. Even the PS5 went from $399 to $699 for the PRO.

Of course, there is some corporate greed, no doubt about it. Now instead of crypto we have the AI which practically allows both AMD and nVIDIA to price high and still make billions. Question is, how much you can cut cost and force TSMC to sell you cheape waffers and others cheaper memory etc.? I don't know, but I don't think a $499 Blackwell 5080 20+ GB is doable.
 
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Calm green ocean, calm green ocean.
 
All of the talk about pricing got me wondering how much worse things have gotten at the low end...

GTX 260 - $399
GTX 460 - $279
GTX 560 -$249
GTX 660 - $299
GTX 760 - $249
GTX 960 - $199
GTX 1060 - $249
RTX 2060 - $349
RTX 3060 - $329
RTX 4060 - $299

That GTX 260 is about $585 after adjusting for inflation :eek:
 
I haven't, only partially the PS5 Pro Technical Seminar which (to the point I was it) was reinforcing upscalers and frame generation alongside RT, meaning they're tech that will stick around.

No matter what's the approach, hopefully they'll get it implemented soon.
Yep, that's what they (all of them vendors) are pushing as when you're much smaller player all you can do is to follow the leader - so I can fully blame NVIDIA for this rush WAY before it was ready for public consumption. What I have main issue with is image quality. I see PT on screenshots, looks great. I start it in my game, I move around and... what the hell is this noise everywhere, crawling on textures, in shadows etc? GI lagging for even 2-3 seconds at times, reflections of visibly low resolution and details, ghosting and blur everywhere, and all that cost so much FPS as well! Fix the noise, blur and ghosting and speed things up and I am happy - I am ok for it to be done with AI, it doesn't have to be perfect, just good enough. We know they can't make RT itself go much faster, for mentioned by me reasons, it has to come with some crutches to help it - and good, be smart about it, use all the other tech you can to make it better, don't just flip a switch in UE5 and expect miracles you lazy devs! :P
 
(...)
That GTX 260 is about $585 after adjusting for inflation :eek:
People always forget about inflation. Even now pricing flying around of people wishing 5k series to be same price as 4k series - again forgetting about min 12% inflation between 4k premiere and 5k premiere. That said, much bigger spread between tiers these days, I believe - performance-wise at least.
 
Were the nodes really cheaper back then? (If so, what made the prices go up?)
Complexity. Current nodes are so close already to what is possible in physics it requires much higher precision, complexity and much more expensive machines plus few months of time to fully produce one chip (though of course many thousands are done at the same time). Also, with initial node release yields are much lower too and it takes time for them to be better. Chips got bigger too (many more transistors and much higher complexity). Masks alone for photolithography increased in price considerably - for 14nm it was $3 mil per set, for 7nm they costed about $10 mil per set, now it's over $40 mil per set. Any error in the chip discovered in early production and you need brand new masks, so that's another 40 mil down the drain, etc.

Were the cards really less complex?
By far, yes. Much less power use = less complex (less layers) board, less components and traces, smaller, much less complex chips, etc.

I mean, compared to now they were definitely more simple but I'm pretty sure for the tech we had back then they were cutting edge tech and in no way 'simple'.
And yet tech was progressing exponentially, so by the time they went to production, they were already outdated and cost of producing them rapidly dropped down. Not much of the case anymore.

Why is is it only PC components that get more expensive as tech advances in the whole entirety of the history of humanity and why did it only start going up about 10 years ago?
It's getting more and more visible the closer we get to physical barriers - each next push is exponentially more expensive now. Also, it's more visible the more complex chips you produce, which makes mid-high end PC GPUs way more complex than console chips (as those are comparable to low-mid range usually). And lastly, console market is much bigger and hardware is subsidised by the parent company, who just want to capture as much market as they can because they will earn much more monies from selling games. Not the case on the PC at all.

Every other line of technology gets cheaper as we progress, but for some reason not for this one space...
Not true, just look for example at mini computers like RaspberryPi - they get more and more expensive with each generation. More powerful but more expensive too. What makes things cheaper is not technology progressing (in a way of how many transistors you can slap into a chip) but mass production - the bigger the market and the more you can sell, the cheaper it is per each unit.

Ultimately I don't know the answer, but I suspect it's more about shareholders and driving up stock prices than any other factor.
That adds up to the cost for sure, but the tech is getting much more expensive to design and produce now too - because of the mentioned earlier reasons.

I really don't mean to pick on you btw; you just happened to air the sentiment/excuse about pricing that irks me somewhat as it just handwaves away all responsibility like it's just some law of nature that prices are higher and there's nothing that we or corporations could do about it - when the base reality is it's us and the corporations that set the prices for EVERYTHING at every level of the process.
Everything could be cheaper, but the thing is corporations rule the big chunk of western world by lobbying, pulling strings, manipulating markets etc. That surely drives the cost of everything up. But also, average person gets more and more wealthy too each year - and with that comes inflation and raising prices, often outpacing the wealth growth of average person. Joe asks for more monies in salary, corporation charges the other joe more to cover that but then charges even more to also put a bunch into their pockets, then avoids taxes so then joe has to cover that from his higher salary etc. Loads of bad stuff. But we allow it and we consume a lot happily, so it's not going to change anytime soon.
 
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