Blackwell gpus

[gpuerrilla]

I've had a 4090 on a 5800x for over a year, it definitely holds in back expecially in rt games.

We seen this though when it was the first time in as long as I can remember that a GPU was clearly waiting for a monster cpu to compliment it back around release. All the fomo to get the best value yet it was going to be paired with weak components. Unfortunately there was no in between sku just a gulf down to the 4080 which was 1200 at the time. The 4070 was not any leap if you were on strong ampere/rdna2 to warrant the prices. So to compliment the beast you have also got to overhaul the other components making it a big investment rather than a drop in upgrade.

Not sure why anyone would be in a hurry to switch out the 4090 for a 5090 in most cases, you would be better poised moving off AM4 and seeing what a top fresh cpu build can offer the 4090..

 

[brostradamus]

The problem is that if you are CPU limited,the RTX5090 will be underperforming and you might as well get an RTX5080 or RTX5070. It's like putting a more powerful engine in a car,put not upgrading the transmission or tires.

When you do dGPU upgrades,you need to do one which is a good match with your CPU.

For example,I would rather get a 7800X3D/9800X3D with an RTX5080 than a Zen3 CPU with an RTX5090. I only have an RTX3060TI ATM,but see performance improvements at qHD going from a 5700X with 3600MHZ DDR4 to a Ryzen 7 7800X3D in a number of games.

You saw that in those two RT games,a 7800X3D and a RTX4070 was faster than a Ryzen 5 5600 and a RTX4080. The same would apply with an RTX4090.

Even a sub £200 Ryzen 7 5700X3D would be noticeably better in many of those games than a non-X3D Zen3 CPU.

Also,the 7800X3D doesn't need OTT hardware. A £100 motherboard like an ASRock B650M-HDV/M.2 would be fine with it. Fancy DDR5 is also less of a concern with a 7800X3D. It even does not need fancy cooling - a good £20 Thermalright air cooler would be fine.

i think with DLSS/framegen and RT heavy presets you could justify a 5090 over a cpu upgrade

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

@CAT-THE-FIFTH yes, this is where it all started. During this period AMD's market share went from 35% down to 21%, incredible and what messaging do we think Nvidia got from this?

A, AMD are irrelevant and B, they will buy anything for any price.... Nvidia was right.

And how do we think AMD felt about this after having tried? They put a lot of R&D in to this GPU and sold it at a reasonable price, it was meant to be AMD's way back to 50%, instead they went from 35% to 21%, why do we bother? Utter dejection.

Apparently not "anything" otherwise AMD would've sold more cards!
Perhaps the issue was that AMD did this once and because it didn't fix things overnight they abandoned the strategy. Maybe what people needed from AMD was consistency. What did they do after this? Nvidia released the 900 series and AMD re-released the 200 series under the 300 series naming. Was the 400 and 500 series any better? Meanwhile Nvidia had moved on to the RTX 2000 which I believe saw the introduction of Ray Tracing and DLSS?

 

[gpuerrilla]

i think with DLSS/framegen and RT heavy presets you could justify a 5090 over a cpu upgrade

Isnt all of what you mention contributing to putting more strain on the cpu?

Apparently not "anything" otherwise AMD would've sold more cards!
Perhaps the issue was that AMD did this once and because it didn't fix things overnight they abandoned the strategy. Maybe what people needed from AMD was consistency. What did they do after this?

I think it was discussed recently on the tech tuber channels where they remind us that AMD Radeon have tried most of these tactics before and it didnt win over mindshare/market. What they do need to do is if they can shave off costs like using GDDR6 and cache, smaller die is pass savings on to the consumer and stop trying to pretend to be the premium brand.

 

[markoboyo11]

We seen this though when it was the first time in as long as I can remember that a GPU was clearly waiting for a monster cpu to compliment it back around release. All the fomo to get the best value yet it was going to be paired with weak components. Unfortunately there was no in between sku just a gulf down to the 4080 which was 1200 at the time. The 4070 was not any leap if you were on strong ampere/rdna2 to warrant the prices. So to compliment the beast you have also got to overhaul the other components making it a big investment rather than a drop in upgrade.

Not sure why anyone would be in a hurry to switch out the 4090 for a 5090 in most cases, you would be better poised moving off AM4 and seeing what a top fresh cpu build can offer the 4090..

Yeh that's exactly it, only gpu that made sence last gen was the 4090 expecially at the 1300 I got it for new, just to get strangled by the cpu.
At least now tho I'm not eyeing up new gpus and looking at a good performance upgrade with a new cpu.

 

[chaparral]

No release date and no confirmed specs or prices

The new 5070/5080/5090 gpu's should be out by September

 

[humbug]

I think it was discussed recently on the tech tuber channels where they remind us that AMD Radeon have tried most of these tactics before and it didnt win over mindshare/market. What they do need to do is if they can shave off costs like using GDDR6 and cache, smaller die is pass savings on to the consumer and stop trying to pretend to be the premium brand.

I think AMD can move the needle with GPU's $500 and under, a more value orientated mindset, people spending over that are more about premium, for the most part Nvidia = Premium and if they are spending $600+ premium is what they want for that money.
Its like people might spend up to $600 on an Android phone but if its $1000+ well then it needs to be an iPhone.

Related to that i also think Nvidia want to foster that mindset, they want to be seen as the Apple of the GPU world, AMD puts out a $1000 GPU and its pretty decent, the 7900 XTX, Nvidia relaunches the 4080 at the same price, that put a stop to AMD's sales right away. You could say this is just Nvidia being competitive, sure and that's true but i also think there is more to it than that, its like..... oh no you don't, this is my space, get out.

My worry Nvidia see it like that right across the range, the fact is AMD do ONLY exist in the GPU space because Nvidia allow it, how much market share do Nvidia think AMD are entitled to? 10%? 5%? 2%? 0.3%?
And the low IQ of some tech journalists, the sort of people who do and have said that AMD should always be 30 to 40% cheaper than Nvidia no matter what Nvidia do, arguing that's how you gain market share, honestly i hear that and i do think your IQ is 87 because it doesn't take more than that to realise what's wrong with that statement.

 

[brostradamus]

Isnt all of what you mention contributing to putting more strain on the cpu?

but the bottleneck shifts because you are increasing the gpu load by few multiples, also framegen lets you decouple the gpu queue for greater utilization

My worry Nvidia see it like that right across the range, the fact is AMD do ONLY exist in the GPU space because Nvidia allow it, how much market share do Nvidia think AMD are entitled to? 10%? 5%? 2%? 0.3%?. And the low IQ of some tech journalists, the sort of people who do and have said that AMD should always be 30 to 40% cheaper than Nvidia no matter what Nvidia do, arguing that's how you gain market share, honestly i hear that and i do think your IQ is 87 because it doesn't take more than that to realise what's wrong with that statement.

if you dont have a comparable product/service you have to offer a better price, thats how it goes, standard market theory..
also this space has nothing in common with smartphones, apple is selling an ecosystem - there are switching costs/efforts involved
and despite that samsung has successfully carved out a more premium niche with the zfold line - so, eventually it all boils down to the ability to conceive and deliver superior products
where else have i heard this, oh yes the ryzen line of cpus - isnt amd now a "premium" brand in the cpu market because its offering a comparable/superior product?
imo theres no need to express solidarity with any brand for failing to compete

 

[Joxeon]

I think AMD can move the needle with GPU's $500 and under, a more value orientated mindset, people spending over that are more about premium, for the most part Nvidia = Premium and if they are spending $600+ premium is what they want for that money.
It’s like people might spend up to $600 on an Android phone but if its $1000+ well then it needs to be an iPhone.

AMDs big problem is launch pricing, I’d have bought an AMD gpu this gen had they launched at the pricing they’re currently selling for.

It’s no good AMD dropping the price after everyone has already bought Nvidia cards, this is why they don’t gain any market share.

 

[humbug]

but the bottleneck shifts because you are increasing the gpu load by few multiples, also framegen lets you decouple the gpu queue for greater utilization

if you dont have a comparable product/service you have to offer a better price, thats how it goes, standard market theory..
also this space has nothing in common with smartphones, apple is selling an ecosystem - there are switching costs/efforts involved
and despite that samsung has successfully carved out a more premium niche with the zfold line - so, eventually it all boils down to the ability to conceive and deliver superior products
where else have i heard this, oh yes the ryzen line of cpus - isnt amd now a "premium" brand in the cpu market because its offering a comparable/superior product?
imo theres no need to express solidarity with any brand for failing to compete

You don't think CUDA, AI, RTX, G-Sync, DLSS..... is an eco system?

AMDs big problem is launch pricing, I’d have bought an AMD gpu this gen had they launched at the pricing they’re currently selling for.

It’s no good AMD dropping the price after everyone has already bought Nvidia cards, this is why they don’t gain any market share.

Totally, i agree.

Has Anyone Moved From Nvidia To Amd And Not Regretted It

FTFY I get it, the release prices were a joke. But if someone is buying a GPU today we need to look at current prices. I’m going to judge the 7900XT I can buy today for £630 and two free games. Can get one for under £550 currently

forums.overclockers.co.uk

 

[brostradamus]

You don't think CUDA, AI, RTX, G-Sync, DLSS..... is an eco system?

for devs yes, but not for consumers, i dont have a switching cost as a gamer - i am not tied into any proprietary nvidia apps or utilities
edit: also devs have alternatives for the above except cuda which isnt relevant for gaming

 

[humbug]

for devs yes, but not for consumers, i dont have a switching cost as a gamer - i am not tied into any proprietary nvidia apps or utilities

Of course it is, I don't believe people would by as many Nvidia GPU's as they do now if they took away DLSS, and i think you would agree, its not sold just for its pure raster performance, its also for the exclusive features attached to it, that's an eco system.

 

[brostradamus]

Of course it is, I don't believe people would by as many Nvidia GPU's as they do now if they took away DLSS, and i think you would agree, its not sold just for its pure raster performance, its also for the exclusive features attached to it, that's an eco system.

doesnt really matter, amd can create XXXSS which works better than DLSS, no ones stopping them
as a framework it doesnt tie me down to any vendor, doesnt matter what you call it as long it is functional
are you an amd apologist btw?

edit: also the only desktop ecosystem that really matters is windows, everything else is invisible to the consumer, as long as windows works the same on both configurations theres no switching cost/effort to be expended by the consumer. compare that to the switch between iphone and android (cost of an entrenched ecosystem).. its similar to arguments on how linux should be chosen over windows but is often unsuccessful irl, so theres no real comparison between phones and graphic cards, graphic cards are a highly commoditized product

 

[humbug]

doesnt really matter, amd can create XXXSS which works better than DLSS, no ones stopping them
as a framework it doesnt tie me down to any vendor, doesnt matter what you call it as long it is functional
are you an amd apologist btw?

Good grief...

 

[Tinek]

(...) pass savings on to the consumer and stop trying to pretend to be the premium brand.

Do you consider NVIDIA the premium brand? Neither of them, in my mind, have anything to do with the actual premium brands - they're just selling standard consumer (and prosumer) stuff in retail, that's it. Yet we see "premium" like pricing in places already (AIB mostly). People thinking consumer stuff like gaming GPUs (irrelevant of brand) or even mobile phone (there ARE actually premium models out there, for dozens of thousands, made of gold etc. but not standard iPhone or Samsung and the likes!) are premium in any way, is the problem.

 

[humbug]

Do you consider NVIDIA the premium brand? Neither of them, in my mind, have anything to do with the actual premium brands - they're just selling standard consumer (and prosumer) stuff in retail, that's it. Yet we see "premium" like pricing in places already (AIB mostly). People thinking consumer stuff like gaming GPUs (irrelevant of brand) or even mobile phone (there ARE actually premium models out there, for dozens of thousands, made of gold etc. but not standard iPhone or Samsung and the likes!) are premium in any way, is the problem.

Nvidia are, AMD aren't, notice the theme in all of this is not that Nvidia are overpriced, even if pushed on it they will say so but what they expend energy on arguing is that AMD are.

 

[Tinek]

but the bottleneck shifts because you are increasing the gpu load by few multiples, also framegen lets you decouple the gpu queue for greater utilization

RT relies on CPU processing a lot, the more GPU can process of it the higher load it puts on the CPU as well. FG "decouples" GPU in a way that it's busy generating in-between frames instead of doing actual calculations of the next frame, so CPU has a bit more time to work on the prep, however that doesn't actually increase performance, it just adds latency, so the utilization change is meaningless here.

if you dont have a comparable product/service you have to offer a better price, thats how it goes, standard market theory..

As reality shown multiple times, even if you do it doesn't guarantee any success. Theory in this case looks nice on paper, reality shows all the time differences in comparison to theory.

and despite that samsung has successfully carved out a more premium niche with the zfold line - so, eventually it all boils down to the ability to conceive and deliver superior products

But it doesn't have to have anything to do with superior products - sometimes it's just better advertising, sometimes it's cheaper product that wins (even if worse), sometimes availability in big enough numbers matter more than anything else, etc. There are countless examples from the past of reality not adhering to simple platitudes of "superior product wins" or "better priced product wins".

imo theres no need to express solidarity with any brand for failing to compete

IMHO there's no reason to show any loyalty to any of the brands - they come and go, things change all the time and their common goal is to fleece consumers more than anything else.

 

[Tinek]

Totally, i agree.

Has Anyone Moved From Nvidia To Amd And Not Regretted It

FTFY I get it, the release prices were a joke. But if someone is buying a GPU today we need to look at current prices. I’m going to judge the 7900XT I can buy today for £630 and two free games. Can get one for under £550 currently

forums.overclockers.co.uk

If their pricing was more sensible with 7000 series I likely would've not bought 4090 instead. If I am getting fleeced, at least I want the best for that.

 

[Tinek]

Nvidia are, AMD aren't, notice the theme in all of this is not that Nvidia are overpriced, even if pushed on it they will say so but what they expend energy on arguing is that AMD are.

We have very different definition of premium, I think... Lets look at one of the dictionaries (Collins in this case): "Premium goods are of a higher than usual quality and are often expensive.", or another source "A premium brand is an individual, company, product, or service generally perceived to have better quality and exceptional value in the target market's mind.". NVIDIA does not have "higher than usual quality goods" - they ARE the usual quality; neither they have better value in the market, as they ARE the market. We can talk about some AIB products with fancy cooling etc. and call that premium but not NVIDIA itself, who is a de facto monopoly now. If there's nothing to compare them against (and they only compete with themselves) by the very definition they can't be premium, they're just the standard.

 

[Calin Banc]

Most people do not buy expensive phones, these are the minority of the market. Most of people (over 70% I'm summary last time I've seen UK statistics) change phones every 2-3 years, as they renew contract because that's what they get new phone with - they don't pay up front. Not as common to get GPU with a contract, is it? Though, you can get one on credit/financing but that's more hustle than just new phone contract. Most importantly, phone is these days primary computer people use, hence higher price is much more justified than a mere GPU for gaming on a PC

Every year percentage of people playing on their phones and moving away from pc gaming is growing - in 2022 it was about 40% of UK mobile users and growing every year till then. Amount of money people spend on mobile gaming also raises quickly reach year - they are horribly addictive and designed to suck money out of people. All that pulls people away from pc gaming, so the market for GPUs isn't growing nearly as much as mobile gaming is. This doesn't bode well for the pricing of GPUs either - sell less but for more.

How's more hustle to buy something on a credit card that perhaps you already have? I have 0 interest on it, why would I buy anything with money down when I can spread the cost over multiple pays and actually get a "discount" due to inflation plus a nice credit score? In my country we had in 2022 a 13.8% inflation and in 2023 a 10.4% - the official one at least. If I've got something on a 2 years payment plan, right there is a hefty discount!

You can also keep your GPU for longer periods of time, but if you're in the 4k maxed out 60fps+ crowd, you pay the premium. Just like for anything else.

Phone gaming is a joke. It's easily accessible, that's why numbers are high, but still a joke.

The phone market has competition though, you can buy a £500 from an alternative brand that performs just the same as a £1500 phone from say apple or Samsung but you don’t have that option in the GPU market which is the equivalent of having just apple and Samsung to choose from.

Then buy 500 dollar card and enjoy that. You have the options to no go for 4k max details and frame rate. You do have options, they're just different.