Boiler and tank questions

Freefaller said:
I personally would avoid pumps, my parents have one and it is noisy - it is amazing though, but I couldn't deal with the noise.
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Fair enough, but the quality pumps like Stuart Turner, mounted properly and decoupled from floorboards using rubber mats etc, are really quiet.

a1ex2001 said:
Epic fat fingers moment should say space!
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Ah OK. Agreed. The key third one (if I haven't laboured this point enough already!) is an adequate incoming water main!
 
Quiet to the extent that you don't hear them? Or no noisier than the water running whilst having a regular shower? If so, then that's certainly would change my perception. :)
 
One option is to fit an Aqualisa type shower, which contains the pump and mixer in one box. The box can be fitted in the loft or in the cupboard where the hot water tank is, it just needs a cold feed (from the tank in the loft if required), hot feed and some electricity. They can be a bit noisy but if you isolate it and locate it properly it's fine.
 
Freefaller said:
Quiet to the extent that you don't hear them? Or no noisier than the water running whilst having a regular shower? If so, then that's certainly would change my perception. :)
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An awful lot of shower pumps are badly fitted in airing cupboards and do sound terrible a high quality pump properly installed shouldn't be that bad. A lot are poorly fitted diy jobs done on the cheap to boost shower performance with little else considered!
 
Interesting - food for thought when we do our extension. As we will be putting in underfloor heating downstairs (hot water pipe not electric), so will be ripping out the old boiler / water tanks and refurbing everything, it makes sense to think about that too and fitting a waterfall shower in the en-suite, as the other 2 showers are electric and work well enough to be honest.

Sorry for derailing the thread, but it has helped me with some questions/planning. :)
 
Freefaller said:
Quiet to the extent that you don't hear them? Or no noisier than the water running whilst having a regular shower? If so, then that's certainly would change my perception. :)
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You'll hear them, they'll never be as quiet as just water running unless you locate them far away from your living space, which is typically hard to do. However you can minimise the noise to the extent you wouldn't hear it on the ground floor for example.

The good ones are more soft 'whooshing' than jet engine.
 
If everything is otherwise fine I'd just fit a shower pump. Wouldn't worry about reliability, Even the cheap ones are pretty good and if it does ever fail its a really simple job to swap out. The shower will also still work a tiny bit from the pressure head to the tank so if the worst happens you won't be left with shampoo in your hair & no way of getting it out. As said you just have to take time with the install to avoid noise transmission into the floor/along the pipes.
 
We recently fitted a 10Kw electric shower and it's every bit as good as a power shower. We do however have a really good mains pressure

It replaced a 7Kw shower and the difference is incredible because you can turn the water pressure up and get a piping hot high pressure shower.

As for combi boilers I would not have one again even for free, so many expensive parts to go wrong, £150 for a diverter valve £300 for a heat exchanger (+ fitting) so much head scratching from the plumber when it goes wrong and he replaces 3 different parts before he discovers which one was faulty but tries to charge you for all 3 parts and the time he spent diagnosing the problem and driving off for hours fetching the parts, all at £80 an hour so the final bill is more than a new boiler costs.:rolleyes:

We have a conventional boiler and tank, during summer it runs just 10 minutes a day to heat the tank piping hot, how many minutes during a day would a combi fire up each time you turn on a tap and wait for the water to come hot ?
 
I'll be needing a new boiler this year too and I've been warned to be mindful on the size of the gas feed pipe; highlighting it for the OP.

Some new boilers require 28mm or even 35mm pipe from the gas main whereas mine is 22mm. The combi my neighbours installed required 28mm and a horrid run of new copper up the side of the house. This will probably restrict the size of boiler I can replace it with as I wouldn't want this.
 
Gas pipe size depends on how far it needs to run, how many appliances run off the pipe and how powerful they are. If you want to keep your existing gas pipe, then you need a chap to calculate how powerful an appliance can be ran off it at its current size and position.

If this is not big enough to feed a combi large enough to give adequate water temp/flow then you need to look into a heat only boiler and a storage cylinder, similar to the picture posted earlier in this thread.
 
FlyingFish said:
Gas pipe size depends on how far it needs to run, how many appliances run off the pipe and how powerful they are. If you want to keep your existing gas pipe, then you need a chap to calculate how powerful an appliance can be ran off it at its current size and position.

If this is not big enough to feed a combi large enough to give adequate water temp/flow then you need to look into a heat only boiler and a storage cylinder, similar to the picture posted earlier in this thread.
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It's a heat only boiler and storage cylinder that I have now and intend to replace with the same (though bigger storage tank if possible). My neighbours replaced theirs with a combi (installed where the hot storage tank was) I think because of the same situation the OP is in - to satisfy a power shower and the increased demand on hot water. I don't think it was the best decision.

From what you say, do heat only boilers place less of a demand on the gas supply?
 
Yes, combi boilers are more powerful than heat only boilers (for normal domestic use) and require larger gas pipes to feed them. They heat dhw directly and that takes a lot of energy.

Heat only boilers can take their time to heat a cylinder, so dont need to be as powerful. And most average heating systems dont require big KW to heat them.
 
FlyingFish said:
Yes, combi boilers are more powerful than heat only boilers (for normal domestic use) and require larger gas pipes to feed them. They heat dhw directly and that takes a lot of energy.

Heat only boilers can take their time to heat a cylinder, so dont need to be as powerful. And most average heating systems dont require big KW to heat them.
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Cheers for that, all the more reason for me to ignore suggestions of a combi boiler. Time to get in some quotes for new boiler, storage tank (more than the 114 litre currently fitted if possible), magnetic crud catcher and the associated system flush.

The system is almost 20 years old, the current boiler has a max output of 11.7kw and efficiency of 76% (rated E) so anything would be a step-up. I do wonder how much I would save in gas each month with a new system, but it would probably take a light year for it to pay for itself!
 
Mysterae_ said:
Cheers for that, all the more reason for me to ignore suggestions of a combi boiler. Time to get in some quotes for new boiler, storage tank (more than the 114 litre currently fitted if possible), magnetic crud catcher and the associated system flush.

The system is almost 20 years old, the current boiler has a max output of 11.7kw and efficiency of 76% (rated E) so anything would be a step-up. I do wonder how much I would save in gas each month with a new system, but it would probably take a light year for it to pay for itself!
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A new boiler will almost certainly not pay for itself in savings over it's lifetime modern boilers are not built to last!
 
Im in a similar sized house by the sounds of it and I inherited a Salamander dual head pump which runs 2 showers. The pump was quite noisy but I bought a anti vibration pad for a tenner and it really helped out with the noise. Pressure is 3bar so you get a really powerful shower.

If I was in your position I would try fitting a good Salamander pump for a few hundred quid rather than going for a pressurised system for somewhere in the region of £4k plus redecoration costs depending on what pipework needs moving etc.

Worst case scenario you could flog the pump and go for a pressurised system if its not working out for you but we can run 2 showers at the same time no problem.
 
Had a few quotes in for a new boiler and was given some options, still undecided!

Option 1: Replace boiler with a higher output condensing type (11kwh to 15kw) and replace water tank (114ltr to 140ltr).
Option 2: Replace boiler with combination type.

Option 1 seems the simple option as things just get replaced but there is some difficulty with where the existing flue is (may need a 'snorkel' that'll look like the house has an erection!). I get to keep the existing Aqualisa shower with it's awesome boost :).

Option 2 is more of a change; the combi boiler could be put in the loft that frees up a little space in the kitchen and an entire airing cupboard. However, the shower isn't compatible with a combi system (mavity fed shower) so a new shower would be needed too. Then there's the issue of pressure drops when water is running elsewhere that I've read about with combi boilers.

I get the part about a combi boiler only heating the water you use and there may be some savings in gas usage, but the redundancy of having an immersion heater in the tank has been useful in the past. I'd love to see real world figures comparing the two systems.
 
Am getting the pressurised tank system fitted middle of this month, tank is going into the garage near the new boiler so lots of work on at the weekend to rejig the contents of the garage to make space etc, but upshot is we gain space actually in the house by hot water tank being removed from upstairs airing cupboard and also cold water tank from loft.

Will post back once we have had it fitted.

Matt
 
Matt_Hirst said:
Am getting the pressurised tank system fitted middle of this month, tank is going into the garage near the new boiler so lots of work on at the weekend to rejig the contents of the garage to make space etc, but upshot is we gain space actually in the house by hot water tank being removed from upstairs airing cupboard and also cold water tank from loft.

Will post back once we have had it fitted.

Matt
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Interesting, what convinced you to go with a pressurised system? Of the four companies I sourced for a quote no one mentioned the pressurised system but I guess the house isn't big enough for such a system. Three of the four blokes said a combi boiler would be best, the fourth was non-committal and would fit whatever I decided, which is fair enough.
 
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