Bouncer guilty

[jpmonkey69]

No, why don't you tell us.

OK. Look at your fist.

Then imagine it 3.5 times bigger, and padded.

The damage is going to be a lot less if you hit someone, because the power of the punch is distributed over a wider area and the padding cushions the impact..

When you perform the same kind of punch, without a glove, you will have a higher amount of pounds per square inch in the area you have hit. Causing more damage. (to the area you've hit)

This is why boxers wear gloves, otherwise after a fight they'd be unrecognisable because of all the bruises/cuts/blood.

 

[Borris]

He'd probably hit people that way dozens of times without it resulting in their death. How should he have known than this occasion would result in a freak incident where the person died? His punch resulted in death = manslaughter. He had no intention or way of knowing that his punch would cause death = no way it was murder.

As far as I can make out, it's the intent to harm that is the pertinent factor. The resultant death is therefore murder (non-death would have merely been assault with intent).

If, for example, the bouncer had merely pushed the man, with no intent to harm, yet the man had fallen and died, that would be manslaughter. The death was accidental (whereas, with the intent to harm, the death was unintentional, but no accident).

 

[ExRayTed]

He'd probably hit people that way dozens of times without it resulting in their death. How should he have known than this occasion would result in a freak incident where the person died? His punch resulted in death = manslaughter. He had no intention or way of knowing that his punch would cause death = no way it was murder.

If I pushed you over and you hit your head and died then I could agree with you.If,however,I pushed you over then stamped on your head resulting in your death then it's murder I think.Whilst I doubt very much that he 'Hit people that way dozens of times' the fact that no-one has died before should have no bearing on the case at all.I could shoot people dozens of times but only kill one..is that manslaughter? It was a violent act akin to shooting..he took a risk and has paid the price.

 

[theleg]

Do you know how much power a boxing glove takes out of a punch?... And as above, an uppercut is a severely devastating blow, especially if you've not had "practice" at taking one.


lets just say I'd prefer to be hit by someone wearing a boxing glove than the same person NOT wearing one....

Yes I know exactly how much it takes out of a punch...but thats not the point...The boxer has been using these punches his entire life with no damaging effects...

An uppercut is a knockout blow....Is an intent to knock someone out classed as grevious harm? If the guy had punched to the temple or even straight to the nose, id believe he was out to really hurt the guy...

 

[theleg]

If I pushed you over and you hit your head and died then I could agree with you.If,however,I pushed you over then stamped on your head resulting in your death then it's murder I think.Whilst I doubt very much that he 'Hit people that way dozens of times' the fact that no-one has died before should have no bearing on the case at all.I could shoot people dozens of times but only kill one..is that manslaughter? It was a violent act akin to shooting..he took a risk and has paid the price.

Whats with the absolutely absurd analogies here?

The point dirty was making is that punching in itself is not something that poses a high danger of killing someone...Shooting people is entirely different and its silly to even try and equate them.

 

[Combat squirrel]

cannot beleive some people here are making out it was manslaughter, id bet a lot of money he was a walking chimp with no brains that goes around hurting as many people as he can, deserves everything he can get and will hopefully send out a messege to other bouncers who think there all that and a bag of chips that they cannot go around beating people up. At the very most they should only be in a fight if someone is attacking them, they should defned themselves and thats it, do not go around hitting people just because they feel like it. Its worrying that in every town in the UK every town, most bouncers do the wrong thing

 

[Borris]

An uppercut is a knockout blow....Is an intent to knock someone out classed as grevious harm?

Probably not - More like aggravated assault or occasionin actual bodily harm.

Either way, it shows an intent to cause harm, and any resultant death would be considered murder.

But Ah!, I hear you cry - If the man had not died, why would the offense have been ABH / GBH, and not attempted murder? Probably due to the requirement for the intent to occasion murder, and not to occasion harm, irrespective of the actual outcome.

For example, if I come at you with a knife, and stab you a number of times, yet you live - that is probably attempted murder, as I (demonstrably) had the intent to kill. If I come at you, raining down blows with my fists, that's assault (ABH / GBH being dependent on the outcome), but if you die, I have murdered you.

 

[theleg]

cannot beleive some people here are making out it was manslaughter, id bet a lot of money he was a walking chimp with no brains that goes around hurting as many people as he can, deserves everything he can get and will hopefully send out a messege to other bouncers who think there all that and a bag of chips that they cannot go around beating people up. At the very most they should only be in a fight if someone is attacking them, they should defned themselves and thats it, do not go around hitting people just because they feel like it. Its worrying that in every town in the UK every town, most bouncers do the wrong thing

We are debating the law :dunno:

and I cant believe someone can be so unbelievably ignorant as to make such assumptions about someone they have absolutely no clue about.

Ive never had a problem with bouncers in my life...Ive met tons of really nice ones..a couple of unfriendly ones but nobody vicious. The vast majority of them wont give you any trouble unless youre acting like a bell.

 

[theleg]

Probably not - More like aggravated assault or occasionin actual bodily harm.

Either way, it shows an intent to cause harm, and any resultant death would be considered murder.

But Ah!, I hear you cry - If the man had not died, why would the offense have been ABH / GBH, and not attempted murder? Probably due to the requirement for the intent to occasion murder, and not to occasion harm, irrespective of the actual outcome.

For example, if I come at you with a knife, and stab you a number of times, yet you live - that is probably attempted murder, as I (demonstrably) had the intent to kill. If I come at you, raining down blows with my fists, that's assault (ABH / GBH being dependent on the outcome), but if you die, I have murdered you.

Does it show intent to cause harm? I would question that. What is harm? What is serious or grevious harm? That he chose an uppercut over something else says to me that he wanted to stop the guy in his tracks...Not that he wanted to damage him.

 

[Raumarik]

The worse thing about this thread is that not one person posting here has had any sympathy with the dead man or his family. you're all far too busy arguing over legal technicalities and trying to get one over each other

The man is dead, the bouncer killed him whether he meant to or not quite frankly doesn't matter, he did. I hope the sod rots in prison then in hell.

 

[aceface57]

I personally think he should be charged with murder an uppercut that lifted him off the ground, what was he trying to do there? I'm surprised his neck didn't break. Also as he was a trained box he would know full well how each punch will result and this shows he was looking to do maximum damage.

 

[ExRayTed]

Whats with the absolutely absurd analogies here?

The point dirty was making is that punching in itself is not something that poses a high danger of killing someone...Shooting people is entirely different and its silly to even try and equate them.

Absurd? No..I could never hit someone with the force that an ex commonwealth cruiserweight champion can. **Linky**
His punch without a glove or a trained opponent to take it is a lethal weapon.Much like me holding a gun..I might be able to shoot and hit someone at any range other than point blank..but to kill them with one shot would be unlucky for me.Much the same as his punch really.The intent was violent..and as I previously said why choose an uppercut when almost any other punch delivered by such a skilled practitioner would have the effect of 'stopping him in his tracks' ?

 

[theleg]

The worse thing about this thread is that not one person posting here has had any sympathy with the dead man or his family. you're all far too busy arguing over legal technicalities and trying to get one over each other

The man is dead, the bouncer killed him whether he meant to or not quite frankly doesn't matter, he did. I hope the sod rots in prison then in hell.

Oh boo hoo...go cry in the corner then....

Why would we have sympathy for him? We have no idea what kind of person he was...He could have been a child molester for all you know...

Of course it matters whether he meant to or not...

 

[Abraham]

i think a lot of people misunderstood what i said, well i probably worded it badly, sequoia's use of unintentional is more what i meant than accidental, if that definition of murder is true then i can just about see why it's a murder charge
as i said, the behaviour described along with that of any of the others mentioned is disgraceful, i work with plenty of people who are ex-boxers/currently boxers and with the exception of some incidents when the way doors worked was different they all have a clean slate

Combat squirrel: that's BS i know literally hundreds of bouncers in manchester and very very few of them "do the wrong thing"

 

[theleg]

Absurd? No..I could never hit someone with the force that an ex commonwealth cruiserweight champion can. **Linky**
His punch without a glove or a trained opponent to take it is a lethal weapon.Much like me holding a gun..I might be able to shoot and hit someone at any range other than point blank..but to kill them with one shot would be unlucky for me.Much the same as his punch really.The intent was violent..and as I previously said why choose an uppercut when almost any other punch delivered by such a skilled practitioner would have the effect of 'stopping him in his tracks' ?

What are you talking about? Do you have any idea how many people get punched every single friday and saturday night in the UK these days? If you are honestly trying to argue that this is equivalent to shooting someone, then theres little point in even discussing this with you.

Any other punch would stop a man, but it may also post far more of a risk..Punching to the nose, to the eyes/cheers or to the temple would pose FAR more danger to someone than a punch to the jaw...

and lets not forget here, the punch didnt kill him....he fell and hit his head on the concrete...

 

[aceface57]

Any other punch would stop a man, but it may also post far more of a risk..Punching to the nose, to the eyes/cheers or to the temple would pose FAR more danger to someone than a punch to the jaw...

When i used to be into my boxing, i was alway under the impression the a punch to the side of the jaw is a lot worse than a punch on the nose. You can knock someone out with a punch to the jaw and this is often how boxers are knocked out in the ring.

 

[theleg]

When i used to be into my boxing, i was alway under the impression the a punch to the side of the jaw is a lot worse than a punch on the nose. You can knock someone out with a punch to the jaw and this is often how boxers are knocked out in the ring.

That would depend...Being knocked out isnt that bad of a thing...Im sure youve experienced it being a boxer and all...Id rather be knocked out than have my nose shattered...

Id define that as more 'damaging' than being knocked out...

plus, the guy was hit from below, to the bottom of his jaw.

 

[aceface57]

That would depend...Being knocked out isnt that bad of a thing...Im sure youve experienced it being a boxer and all...Id rather be knocked out than have my nose shattered...

Id define that as more 'damaging' than being knocked out...

plus, the guy was hit from below, to the bottom of his jaw.

You know your jaw can break pretty easy aswell yeah? From a single punch. And being knocked out is pretty serious as it carries a lot of risks, which you can die from, swallowing tounge and chocking. The shock and kill some people. But to be honest all punches to the face are going to be bad.

 

[ExRayTed]

What are you talking about? Do you have any idea how many people get punched every single friday and saturday night in the UK these days? If you are honestly trying to argue that this is equivalent to shooting someone, then theres little point in even discussing this with you.

Any other punch would stop a man, but it may also post far more of a risk..Punching to the nose, to the eyes/cheers or to the temple would pose FAR more danger to someone than a punch to the jaw...

and lets not forget here, the punch didnt kill him....he fell and hit his head on the concrete...

Yes I realise how many people get hit.Do you realise how many of those that commit the violence are trained to his unusually high standards?

**Linky Showing Delaney's Fight Record Again**

His fists are lethal weapons..as would be any championship winning martial artist's.

To simplify..a gun in my very untrained hands (never fired one before) is a lethal weapon.A punch commited by myself isn't (never been trained how to punch and have had 4 fights my entire life).A punch commited by Garry Delaney is a lethal weapon.That's where the analogy comes in.It doesn't have to be a perfect analogy but in my opinion it does the job of separating a drunken friday night tear up with a horribly effective punch delivered by someone who ought to know better.

 

[theleg]

You know your jaw can break pretty easy aswell yeah? From a single punch. And being knocked out is pretty serious as it carries a lot of risks, which you can die from, swallowing tounge and chocking. The shock and kill some people. But to be honest all punches to the face are going to be bad.

Yep but not as easily as your nose...as you know if youre a boxer..

Yep all have the potential to be bad but some carry a higher risk and a higher potentional for 'damage'...I dont believe being knocked out is particularly damaging.