Bouncer guilty

ExRayTed said:
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I can see where you coming from with this and i pretty much agree. I was under the impression that if you hold a liceness (for boxing or any other martial art) and are involved in a fight where you have injuried someone, the police would charge you more severely? Actully can someone clear that up for me, im unsure about it.
 
This is ridiculous, how can you possibly argue this isnt murder because it was the fall that killed him and not the punch directly?

The fall is a DIRECT consequence of the blow, without the blow there is no death.
 
Balddog said:
and lets not forget here, the punch didnt kill him....he fell and hit his head on the concrete...
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That's not in contention though.

The bouncer threw down fisticuffs, with the intent to hurt the man, resulting in his death.

I'm not sure how the choice of punch, or even the fact that the bouncer is / was a boxer, plays a part, other than it means he has a proven ability to punch, which was never in question.
 
ExRayTed said:
Yes I realise how many people get hit.Do you realise how many of those that commit the violence are trained to his unusually high standards?

**Linky Showing Delaney's Fight Record Again**

His fists are lethal weapons..as would be any championship winning martial artist's.

To simplify..a gun in my very untrained hands (never fired one before) is a lethal weapon.A punch commited by myself isn't (never been trained how to punch and have had 4 fights my entire life).A punch commited by Garry Delaney is a lethal weapon.That's where the analogy comes in.It doesn't have to be a perfect analogy but in my opinion it does the job of separating a drunken friday night tear up with a horribly effective punch delivered by someone who ought to know better.
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Can you please stop busting out the tired Van Dammesque cliches...My fists are deadly weapons...No, they arent deadly weapons, you are ignoring the fact that the punch didnt kill him...It was the fall onto the concrete that killed him.

How many people has he killed with those fists? Zero...including this man..
 
Balddog said:
Does it show intent to cause harm? I would question that. What is harm? What is serious or grevious harm? That he chose an uppercut over something else says to me that he wanted to stop the guy in his tracks...Not that he wanted to damage him.
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I think we should agree to disagree....

I think that if he wanted to knock the guy out, he should have realised he'd probably hit his head as he hit the ground if he hit him with an uppercut, as he'd fall backwards. As a bouncer it's his responsibilityto keep people safe and to NOT USE excessive force. There is NO WAY the force he used was reasonable.

To punch someone standing in front of you to the ground without quite as much risk of them breaking their head is to punch their head with a hook. That way they'll more likely fall over sideways, the plus side is you can use your hands to break the fall, if you're still aware enough. An uppercut will send you backwards, where you're less likely to be able to break your fall with your hands, aware or not.
 
Brok said:
This is ridiculous, how can you possibly argue this isnt murder because it was the fall that killed him and not the punch directly?

The fall is a DIRECT consequence of the blow, without the blow there is no death.
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We are arguing intent Brok.
 
Balddog said:
We are arguing intent Brok.
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This is why I think he's guilty.

He INTENDED to hurt the victim, by punching them to the floor, and previously spraying "something that made the victim scream" into his eyes.

Regardless of the fact that the victim may have been out of line in the first place, the bouncer used excessive force, with the spray, AND the punch.
 
Balddog said:
Yep but not as easily as your nose...as you know if youre a boxer..
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It's JUST as easy to break someones jaw as their nose with a punch if:

1) You know how to punch properly
2) You are wearing no padding. (i.e. boxing gloves)
 
It is Murder because of 2 reasons

1 - Causation, as soon as he punched the guy, he has started a chain of events The chain is said to be “Forged in Titanium” and very hard to break. Or Sing Qua Non – without which not. Or more eloquently put, the “But For Test."

But for the punch, the victim would not have fallen and hit his skull.

2 -

In Causation, there is also The Thin Skull Rule – For example, if I had hit you on the head hard with a textbook and died, but unbeknown to me, you have problem with clotting factors in the blood. I have to take my victim as I find him, in that scenario might not be murder (that goes with the mens rea), but the fact that I entire ignorant of the medical condition is irrelevant. It’s not entirely logical but the criminal law in its wisdom has decided that if we go around hitting people on the head, or shooting or stabbing or anything else in a violent nature, we must accept the responsibility that follows.

The boxer is a professional, he knew the limits of his punches, and yet he went for it.
 
jpmonkey69 said:
This is why I think he's guilty.

He INTENDED to hurt the victim, by punching them to the floor, and previously spraying "something that made the victim scream" into his eyes.

Regardless of the fact that the victim may have been out of line in the first place, the bouncer used excessive force, with the spray, AND the punch.
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Mate you read the article wrong...

There were two guys...He sprayed Farrell in the face and then Price(the dead guy) came outside and started arguing with the bouncer....
 
jpmonkey69 said:
It's JUST as easy to break someones jaw as their nose with a punch if:

1) You know how to punch properly
2) You are wearing no padding. (i.e. boxing gloves)
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If intentionally trying to yes....but theres nothing to suggest that was the case...Go to any boxing gym and ask how many broken noses there are compared to broken jaws...We both know that broken noses are FAR more common than broken jaws...even in boxing.
 
Balddog said:
Mate you read the article wrong...

There were two guys...He sprayed Farrell in the face and then Price(the dead guy) came outside and started arguing with the bouncer....
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Yep, you're right... sorry about that, I must have skim read that part.

However it still holds true though, whoever he sprayed in the face it was unnessersary force + illegal :)
 
jpmonkey69 said:
However it still holds true though, whoever he sprayed in the face it was unnessersary force + illegal :)
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We're not debating whether the bouncer committed a crime, merely whether he committed murder and is deserving of life in prison.
 
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jpmonkey69 said:
Yep, you're right... sorry about that, I must have skim read that part.

However it still holds true though, whoever he sprayed in the face it was unnessersary force + illegal :)
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How do you know it was unnecessary? The fact that a big, ex boxing bouncer had to use a spray in the first place would imply necessity to me..

but thats a side issue...and we have agreed to disagree on the main one :)

Thats what juries are for after all...Id have gone with not guilty.
 
Balddog said:
If intentionally trying to yes....but theres nothing to suggest that was the case...Go to any boxing gym and ask how many broken noses there are compared to broken jaws...We both know that broken noses are FAR more common than broken jaws...even in boxing.
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Again, I concur... In boxing.

Bust as soon as you take off the gloves, the punch is roughly 3 times as "strong"/powerful because the surface area hit is smaller. Every boxer will know this.

One of my mates was punched in the jaw (1 punch), in Reading town and his jaw had to be wired together for 6 weeks! :eek: Had the guy been wearing a glove, I'm sure it wouldn't have been broken.
 
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