**British Armed Forces Discussion Thread**

a1ex2001 said:
What would you like to cut back on so we can afford this massively expensive air defence system which is likely never to get used?
Click to expand...

I'd like to see two things done simultaneously and both are linked -

1st - I think that the 1* Officer level and above need to be cut back myself (so starting from Air Commodore for RAF, Commodore for Navy and Brigadier General for Army & Marines) because our military has become horrendously "management bloated" because the people who directly decide how many people need to be in-charge are the people who are in-charge. So whilst the rest of the Forces have suffered cut backs, the 1* and higher ranks have, in comparison, expanded and because of that they've had to find/invent a whole raft of "peacetime" made-up jobs to keep all these extra people doing something, adding a huge amount of waste, inefficiency, and cost.

As an example of this management bloat here is what I posted elsewhere 2 years ago (so add another 6-10% to each wage I mention) but it's been a huge issue since the Cold War drawdowns -

Personally I would suggest a wholesale removal of around 66% of the bloated Air Rank officer corps we currently have would be a great start. We are currently at approximately 160 officers who hold an Air Rank (the equivalent to a General or Admiral who are all on a minimum pay of £113k) which I believe is more than we had during WW2 when the RAF was 350 times bigger - I mean one of these Officer's job is solely to promote RAF Sport FFS......for at least £113k a year! - and I would suggest a harsh refocusing from the remaining 33% onto the RAF's core mission set - delivering air power - and anything which doesn't directly do that needs to go.

However that'll never happen, the cows won't vote for the slaughterhouse and the Officer corps won't cut their bloated numbers down, there's far too much money and titles (OBE, MBE, CBE, Sir etc) to be made.
Click to expand...

or this one which whilst similar in overall outlook is especially important when I use it to compare the UK to Israel for 1* Officer levels -

Looking at the excessive amount of Senior Officers mentioned above, some of them have jobs which make sense and I don't deny that some of these roles are very much needed, but on the other hand there are jobs like "Head of RAF Sport" for example, which apparently needs a person to be paid £115k+ per year (and a 50% pension on retirement), or Attachés to various embassies (again £115k+ per year again), or a single person paid £125k+ just to look after "RAF Scotland" with it's one, single air base and then there's "cross-over" roles where 7 Officers all have the same title i.e "Head of Training" etc.

The reason for this level of "over-Officering" is, and sadly it's a well established trope, that the only people who can create/manage the roles are the same ones who do them, rather than being managed by the MOD, so sometimes (not every-time TBH) they create roles to create extra places just for their low-rank work-mates to get promoted and fill, who then all get a lovely pay bump and a much better pension when they leave, and because its only senior Officers who create roles, its also only them who can cancel the role, which never happens, meaning the senior officer branch gets bigger and bigger every year whilst the number of people in the RAF gets lower. It's all very much "Jobs for the Boys" sadly.

As an example of this, every RAF base this year, which used to be managed by a single Group Captain (1 rank below "General") has now been split into two Group Captain roles - Infrastructure and Flying - so instantly we've created a dozen new Group Captain roles which now need to be filled by a whole bunch of extra Group Captains, all being paid around £95k-105k a year, and a percentage of these extra Group Captains will need to be promoted, meaning that extra Air Commodore (rank equivalent of "General") roles will need to be created for them to move into, creating even more £115k+ jobs which you, me and every other tax payer pays for at a time when the number of people in the RAF keeps dropping further and further - But the Senior Officers on their 6 figure wages and 50% pensions don't care about that, and they're the only ones who can reverse these decisions, and that'll never happen because they're "in on it" for want of a better term as, understandably for them, none would close their own position even if it could instead be combined with another.

Just to put our own bloated senior Officer corps into context - The Israeli Defence Force (Army/Air Force/Navy etc) is similar in size to the UK's Armed Forces (full time) at around 130k-150k people - It only uses 25 "General" rank senior Officers for those 140k people (link). Or how about this, in WW2 the Army had just 362 Generals for over 2.5 Million Soldiers but now still has 210 Generals for just 78,000 Soldiers etc (yes its endemic through-out our whole military, the Navies just as bad too).
Click to expand...

2nd - Procurement mismanagement/waste, which is heavily linked to the above, where to ensure the overly bloated 1* and above levels can keep moving on up the promotion chain, most officers will move around to different jobs every 2 to 3 years, meaning none ever become "good" or "experienced" at the role they are currently in. It also leads to a secondary waste, were every time someone moves into a new post they decide that things need to be changed for that person to show that they've done something so that they can use that change as evidence for promotion, meaning people without experience are continually meddling with things "just" because they need to be seen doing "something" for promotion. The amount of waste generally in the military is high, some of which is very understandable, but the procurement waste hits the hardest, not only in money wasted but also in time wasted as plans are continually changed again and again.

Again, using Israel as an example, they have a budget just 1/3 of ours - $75b for UK vs $25b for Israel in 2022 - which is a higher GDP (2.5% UK vs 4.5% Israel) but what they get out of that money, because it is tightly focused and with minimal waste (just like their 1* Officer levels) is far more effective than what we can get, although ours TBF does suffer from various Government leaderships still trying act like a mini "World Police".

So whilst a reduction in 1* Officer levels would "only" save less than £100m, if we could massively reduce our waste, especially in procurement, thats a huge cost saving well past £100m.
 
ianh said:
I'd like to see two things done simultaneously and both are linked -

1st - I think that the 1* Officer level and above need to be cut back myself (so starting from Air Commodore for RAF, Commodore for Navy and Brigadier General for Army & Marines) because our military has become horrendously "management bloated" because the people who directly decide how many people need to be in-charge are the people who are in-charge. So whilst the rest of the Forces have suffered cut backs, the 1* and higher ranks have, in comparison, expanded and because of that they've had to find/invent a whole raft of "peacetime" made-up jobs to keep all these extra people doing something, adding a huge amount of waste, inefficiency, and cost.

As an example of this management bloat here is what I posted elsewhere 2 years ago (so add another 6-10% to each wage I mention) but it's been a huge issue since the Cold War drawdowns -



or this one which whilst similar in overall outlook is especially important when I use it to compare the UK to Israel for 1* Officer levels -



2nd - Procurement mismanagement/waste, which is heavily linked to the above, where to ensure the overly bloated 1* and above levels can keep moving on up the promotion chain, most officers will move around to different jobs every 2 to 3 years, meaning none ever become "good" or "experienced" at the role they are currently in. It also leads to a secondary waste, were every time someone moves into a new post they decide that things need to be changed for that person to show that they've done something so that they can use that change as evidence for promotion, meaning people without experience are continually meddling with things "just" because they need to be seen doing "something" for promotion. The amount of waste generally in the military is high, some of which is very understandable, but the procurement waste hits the hardest, not only in money wasted but also in time wasted as plans are continually changed again and again.

Again, using Israel as an example, they have a budget just 1/3 of ours - $75b for UK vs $25b for Israel in 2022 - which is a higher GDP (2.5% UK vs 4.5% Israel) but what they get out of that money, because it is tightly focused and with minimal waste (just like their 1* Officer levels) is far more effective than what we can get, although ours TBF does suffer from various Government leaderships still trying act like a mini "World Police".

So whilst a reduction in 1* Officer levels would "only" save less than £100m, if we could massively reduce our waste, especially in procurement, thats a huge cost saving well past £100m.
Click to expand...
Don’t disagree with anything you say but it’s not going to fund a UK wide iron dome and a standing force capable of repelling an invasion. Maybe if we changed the role or armed forces so they were entirely based on homeland defence loose things like aircraft carriers and a blue water navy, drop the force projection and retreat from our global commitments like the falklands and nato and throw in conscription and we could build a specialist force like Israel’s for pummeling our inferior neighbours?
 
If you want to save money, scrap those jobs which achieve nothing to defence of the realm. The musical branches are one that could completely disappear and operational output would not be changed one iota - the RAF trade alone has a Wing Commander Director of Music, plus a full rank system and its own distinct uniform. The Gurkhas have their own band with the troops taken from all those that pass basic training and given an instrument to learn, even if they have no knowledge of music to begin with. The Marines (who are also the Navy’s musical trade) spend three years in training to learn how to march with their instruments.

You could slim all this down to a single Armed Forces Orchestra without a rank structure and save a load of cash.
 
Penfold101 said:
If you want to save money, scrap those jobs which achieve nothing to defence of the realm. The musical branches are one that could completely disappear and operational output would not be changed one iota - the RAF trade alone has a Wing Commander Director of Music, plus a full rank system and its own distinct uniform. The Gurkhas have their own band with the troops taken from all those that pass basic training and given an instrument to learn, even if they have no knowledge of music to begin with. The Marines (who are also the Navy’s musical trade) spend three years in training to learn how to march with their instruments.

You could slim all this down to a single Armed Forces Orchestra without a rank structure and save a load of cash.
Click to expand...

That side of things is a drop in the ocean really.

The RAF should be run like a business. Hire the best people for high level roles. Not just dish out seniority to people who have no ability to manage.

There just seems to be way too many high ranking people who don't seem to actually influence the world around them.

It needs people with an eye for business and profit margins (ie. Not buying into dumb contracts every five minutes) really. They should interview hundreds of people for any senior position then choose the absolute best candidates.

Instead a lot of people get into positions based on nothing but annual appraisals that are written by their pals.
 
Last edited:
NooBish AbbZ said:
Due a posting soon and I have to book in next month to discuss with the deskie. I really can't decide; I have a few ideas but I also feel like I need to buy a house soon (mainly for diversifying investments, to be honest) as I'm still content on camp (although where I'm at currently has really good accommodation)

I think I'd like to end up around either S'oton or Northumberland(so Leeming or Boulmer?) I know they're opposite ends of the scale/country,) but looking at houses in each, it knocks me sick how much you don't get for your money on the South Coast in comparison.

Northolt interests me for being close to London (obvs not buying a house down there) Brize, maybe for the social? (Again, not buying)
Akrotiri always interests me because of the weather <3
Click to expand...

I done four years in cyprus, was great and loads of cycling all year round. Spent nearly every week cycling up troodos, even got some boarding in.

Boulmer is a great location but can you really cope that long in a bunker? Freaks me out.
 
The military is built on tradition, you can get rid of the Oompah bands for this reason alone.

Besides they are all monster drinkers :)
 
Begbie said:
I done four years in cyprus, was great and loads of cycling all year round. Spent nearly every week cycling up troodos, even got some boarding in.

Boulmer is a great location but can you really cope that long in a bunker? Freaks me out.
Click to expand...
Love the point about Cyprus; I definitely wanna get out there at some point <3

I know... it's a long time, especially if I were to go for a decent chunk of my career and try and stay in the house I potentially buy..
 
Bit off topic, but related in some way.

The military is becoming a joke, but there is no money.

We can't even scrape together a few hundred dollars for a remembrance service on Ops. Says it all really.
 
True, may as well cut them as well.. Along with any form of display team and the aforementioned bands.

Also what do training officers actually do (RAF specific here)? Never seen one in my 16 years. Plus over half of the doctors at the med centre at my base are LOCUM civvy doctors raking it in. For some reason that really annoys me :o:cry:
 
Last edited:
Mad_Jay said:
True, may as well cut them as well.. Along with any form of display team and the aforementioned bands.

Also what do training officers actually do (RAF specific here)? Never seen one in my 16 years. Plus over half of the doctors at the med centre at my base are LOCUM civvy doctors raking it in. For some reason that really annoys me :o:cry:
Click to expand...

To be fair neither had I in 24 years till I arrived at a training squadron to be an instructor. Turns out there’s loads of them and I’m still not sure what they do besides know JSP 822 inside out…

I’m more upset I didn’t go and get a medical degree before sitting in a med centre with my feet up waiting to get to Group Captain!
 
ianh said:
I'd like to see two things done simultaneously and both are linked -

1st - I think that the 1* Officer level and above need to be cut back myself (so starting from Air Commodore for RAF, Commodore for Navy and Brigadier General for Army & Marines) because our military has become horrendously "management bloated" because the people who directly decide how many people need to be in-charge are the people who are in-charge. So whilst the rest of the Forces have suffered cut backs, the 1* and higher ranks have, in comparison, expanded and because of that they've had to find/invent a whole raft of "peacetime" made-up jobs to keep all these extra people doing something, adding a huge amount of waste, inefficiency, and cost.

As an example of this management bloat here is what I posted elsewhere 2 years ago (so add another 6-10% to each wage I mention) but it's been a huge issue since the Cold War drawdowns -



or this one which whilst similar in overall outlook is especially important when I use it to compare the UK to Israel for 1* Officer levels -



2nd - Procurement mismanagement/waste, which is heavily linked to the above, where to ensure the overly bloated 1* and above levels can keep moving on up the promotion chain, most officers will move around to different jobs every 2 to 3 years, meaning none ever become "good" or "experienced" at the role they are currently in. It also leads to a secondary waste, were every time someone moves into a new post they decide that things need to be changed for that person to show that they've done something so that they can use that change as evidence for promotion, meaning people without experience are continually meddling with things "just" because they need to be seen doing "something" for promotion. The amount of waste generally in the military is high, some of which is very understandable, but the procurement waste hits the hardest, not only in money wasted but also in time wasted as plans are continually changed again and again.

Again, using Israel as an example, they have a budget just 1/3 of ours - $75b for UK vs $25b for Israel in 2022 - which is a higher GDP (2.5% UK vs 4.5% Israel) but what they get out of that money, because it is tightly focused and with minimal waste (just like their 1* Officer levels) is far more effective than what we can get, although ours TBF does suffer from various Government leaderships still trying act like a mini "World Police".

So whilst a reduction in 1* Officer levels would "only" save less than £100m, if we could massively reduce our waste, especially in procurement, thats a huge cost saving well past £100m.
Click to expand...

You forgot to mention that star ranks get that salary FOR LIFE (like the Prime Minister, except better paid).

But you're not wrong in the upper-level bloat of the forces and it would save us a not-insubstantial amount.
 
Penfold101 said:
To be fair neither had I in 24 years till I arrived at a training squadron to be an instructor. Turns out there’s loads of them and I’m still not sure what they do besides know JSP 822 inside out…

I’m more upset I didn’t go and get a medical degree before sitting in a med centre with my feet up waiting to get to Group Captain!
Click to expand...

I don't think anybody knows how JSP 822 actually works. Spent 18 months doing phase 2 welfare and I saw it interpreted in loads of different ways by different people.

It just resulted in mass panic when ofsted or auditors turned up :cry: management worried someone will say the wrong thing as its just constantly winged.
 
Meanwhile they're castrating LOA rates, justified by the cost of living increasing in the UK and therefore the disparity between being home and abroad narrowing.

Thank you, I think?
 
Labour won’t be happy until we’re armed with catapults and feather dusters, they just don’t seem interested in defence at all. We can’t rely on others to fight our battles, especially at this perilous moment in time
 
Stu999 said:
Some ships and helicopters being decommissioned:

www.bbc.co.uk

£500m defence cuts as ships, drones and helicopters scrapped

Critics said the move would leave UK defence weaker, at a time of growing international tensions and after over a decade of funding pressures on the armed forces.
www.bbc.co.uk
Click to expand...
I'm mixed emotion with this. Reality is its all old clapped out kit/useless kit. But its still further cuts in a time when we need significant investment.
Watchkeeper has been nothing but a problem since its inception, its dog ****, good riddance. They state there is no replacement, however not a direct replacement and leaves a hole in Army's organic capabilities. We just go cap in hand to RAF, there is still Protector, a much more capable platform.
I'm a bit confused to the Albion/Bulwark situation. On the bus off the bus! We were under the impression they were being mothballed and comms kit stripped out, then we were tasked to refit and assure comms... now they are being scrapped :confused: What a waste of time and resources!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom