Building a Gate

[Martynt74]

Our house has 2 gates at the moment. Both are "open" and don't really give much privacy. This is annoying as we get lots of dog walkers going down the private lane who can see into our garden and also riles up my dogs who spot someone and go legging it over to the gate to try and say hello.

It's been ~12 months now since my wife has been asking for new gates and is now threatening to pay someone to come and do it.....So i need to actually get on with making them.

One gate goes over a fairly narrow "Drive" and the span is around 3m. The plan is to change this to a double gate which is hinged at each side. The other gate is at the front and whilst it's fine as it is, it makes sense for them to match.

So 3 gates needed

2 x 155cm x 140cm gates for the drive

1 x 170cm x 130cm gate for the front path

My initial plan was to build a frame using Mortice and Tenons using 3" x 3" posts and then rebate out a grove to fit 5" x 7/8" T&G boards inside and brace using some 4" x 1". I thought this would look decent as the T&G boards would be recessed with a lip and so should look quite nice.

I've just been speaking to a local timber place who make gates to order, who said they use 4x2 as the outer frame and then 5" x 5/8" T&G and brace using 4" x 1.5". This confused me a bit as surely the combination of T&G and brace is too thick for the frame.

Therefore my questions are

1 - Is 3" x 3" too thick for the frame and should i use either 3x2 or 4x2?

2 - Do i actually need to brace the gate if i'm going to be recessing the T&G parts into the frame and given that the gates themselves aren't huge?

3 - The plan is to use PSE Redwood as whilst i'd love to use Cedar it's not very easy to get hold of and presumably more expensive. What is recommended to treat it? I'm not sure my wife wants to paint them so something as a light stain is needed i reckon. Would prefer not to have to re-do it too often if possible. (Will be doing a dry fit and then applying the stain to each piece so should get good coverage in the grooves)

4 - Am i stupid to hope that a cheap Aldi table saw will be able to cut my Dados without the fence moving all over the place (Haven't used it yet but bought it cheap)

 

[PlacidCasual]

3" frame does sound awfully thick. The depth of the wood is more important than the thickness from a sagging point of view so 4 by 2 sounds better.
Yes you need a brace you need to support that top outer corner from the bottom inner corner or it will sag horribly. I appreciate you will have all that T+G but you can't glue it in position because of expansion allowance. Given that it can slip past itself it will allow slippage. If you were gluing a solid piece of ply in the groove that would add the rigidity against sag.
Can't advise on wood sorry.
You can't cut a dado on UK tablesaws by and large. The riving knife and blade guard get in the way. The riving knife and guard are very important safety features and I don't think it's wise to use a tablesaw without them. A router table is the best way to put your dado in, failing that a plunge router. For the plunge router you'll need an edge guide and to clamp the wood in a way that provide enough support for the base.

 

[Buffman]

Unfortunately I'm no expert so can't help much, but I made the front/back gates in my house by looking at pictures of my parents and cutting out the shapes similar
. I used circa 40mm Thick "pressure treated decking boards" which I sliced in half for the frame. (and used for fence throughout). Mine is "hit and miss" or shadowbox style.

1 year on and no sagging issues (it has a brace both in the middle and to each corner)

Edit: mine are circa 90 to 100cm wide. If yours are 150 ish wide you will definitely want to corner brace it so it doesn't sag. Easy to saw off in situ.

Some pics here
Back gate
http://imgur.com/a/qZvPZTN

Front gate
http://imgur.com/a/OkbQ0fl

 

[Martynt74]

Yeah, i've been doing that.

I'm after something like this

https://www.woodworkersuk.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/curved-top-driveway-gates-large.jpg

https://www.woodworkersuk.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/curved-headed-driveway-gates-rear.jpg

** Do Not Hotlink images **


From reading their page, it looks like they use a 3" frame, with 1" T&G boards and then 2" bracing. Interestingly they seem to leave the bottom of the boards exposed to allow for expansion. I would've put the bottom rail right at the bottom but might just copy their design.

Also will probably just make them square topped because i don't know if i have the patience to curve the top. Or the skills to do it without a bandsaw!

 

[Martynt74]

Lay in bed last night and realised i've given the timber yard the wrong size for the T&G boards and said 4" instead of 5". Praying they've not cut them as i've ordered 35 of them!

 

[darreny]

What tools do you have at yours disposal? I can give you any advice you need to make the gate. Bottom rail sits higher so the stile has some strength when you drive wedges into the tenon. It's also for trimming the bottom of the gate so you're not cutting thru a rail

 

[Mark A]

Awesome project, can't wait to see it take shape.

Not having a rail at the bottom is probably a good idea as water can just drain away. If you had a bottom rail and cut a groove for the T&G, water would find it's way into the groove and would have nowhere to go.

 

[Martynt74]

What tools do you have at yours disposal? I can give you any advice you need to make the gate. Bottom rail sits higher so the stile has some strength when you drive wedges into the tenon. It's also for trimming the bottom of the gate so you're not cutting thru a rail

Have got most tools. No idea how to use half of them though (Got a cordless router coming today along with a biscuit cutting bit, then have table saw, mitre saw, circular saw, jigsaw, drill, impact driver, plane and various sanders). Was contemplating buying a biscuit cutter. Have just ordered a mortice marking gauge too after discovering my marking gauge only has 1 pin and i've no idea what use that is!


The wood is here. My mistake on the length of the T&G cost me £77 As i had to order 100ft of new boards. Wood is bloody expensive!





Also got my shed tidied and given myself a decent workspace



And like a real professional i've hung all my clamps up in a line rather than having them shoved in a box on the floor below!




On to the Gate.

My plan is to not use full length tenons. Partly because i'm not 100% confident in my ability to not **** it up, so by doing them at 2/3's i give myself a bit of wiggle room. I figure it should still give sufficient strength.

I've gone away from a curved top because

A - I don't have a band saw
B - It'd take a lot more work and i think i have enough to do. I also have lots of other jobs to do so trying to avoid this taking weeks!

Here is my current plan. Hopefully there aren't any glaring errors i've made which will cause issues.



The Stiles are 75x75 posts, cut at the top into a slant. Just feels it finishes it slightly

The Grey top rail is 150x75. This will fix into the stiles using a 45mm tenon

The brown bits are all 75x38. The plan being to have these sit flush with the rear edge of the stiles. The boards will then fit onto them and i'll be left with a small ledge on the front side of around 10mm (68-38-19). I'm not 100% sure how i'l going to fix these. I currently have the below 3 ideas. All with pros/cons

• Use a lap joint into the stiles for the middle and bottom rail. Then use biscuits/pocket holes for the diagonal braces.
• Use Pocket holes to fix it all. All holes will then be covered by the T&G boards
• Use tenons to fix the middle and bottom rail. Then use biscuits/pocket holes for the diagonal braces. This is an option but might wait and see how well i do with the tenons on the top rail first. Would be the most time cost.

What i also haven't full decided on is whether to just cut a rebate into the Stiles/Top rail and sit the T&G boards in that (easy option) or whether to cut the dado in and full slot the boards in. This would be a little extra work and give more room for mistakes but it would help on the expansion side i think providing it's not too tight.

All the horizontal edges will have a slight chamfer just to allow for water run off.


Questions

• I'm not 100% sure whether i'll need the middle horizontal brace or not. The gates aren't too high (One is 1600mm and the other at 1300mm).
• Any suggestions for protecting the wood. I plan to coat everything prior to assembly to ensure good coverage. Not decided on a finish yet. If i went for a clear protective coat, would the wood still "age"
• What's the best way for fixing the T&G boards to the frame? Should i use pins (Have a cheap nailgun) or should i use screws?
• Whilst i'm going to coat all the wood. Should i be putting any kind of sealant along any joins to prevent water ingress or just leave it? I'm thinking between the braces and the T&G boards and where the T&G boards meet the frame.
• Any suggestions on fixings? The single gate i can re-use the existing hinge. But the double gate currently only has a single gate so will need new hinges. I figure the gates are going to weigh a lot (not sure how i'll manouvre them on my own!) so will need something heavy duty.
• This is purely cosmetic. On the single gate the plan is to cut the top rail into a ^ shape. For the double gates. Would you cut each gate into a ^or do the left one like / and the right one like \ so that when they meet in the middle they look like a single ^ (Hope that makes sense)
• Sure there'll be others!

 

[famas]

Should use through tenons and wedges on all rails into Stiles, you can also draw bore for added security. Wouldn't recommend subbed tenons on an external gate.

Braces should be taper notched into rails to stop them from creeping, pocket screws won't be strong enough to hold them.

Top edge of rails should be beveled to allow water to drain away, this will make cutting the braces in more difficult, compound bevel tapper cuts.

Face boards should go into groves in Stiles and be pinned in place to allow for movement.

External glue on all tenons but not on boards.
Recommend cascomite wood glue. Avoid PVA and especially polyurethane foam glues, imo they are utter trash. 2 part resin based glue would be best but expensive.

 

[Martynt74]

Bugger, had already cut the top rail for one piece to factor in the stubbed tenon so won't be long enough to do as a through tenon. Might stick it out on a single gate and if things start to sag i can always strip it down and replace the top rail. Then use wedged tenons on the other gates. I had read not to use draw bore pins just because if they shrink they can allow water to get in. If you think they'd be ok, i could always use on my stubbed tenon to give some further support.

@famas Given i don't have anywhere near your level of skill. Would you suggest any kind of sealant for filling gaps where things aren't a completely precise fit. I'm thinking of the face boards into the groves in the stiles and then the bottom rails into the stils.

Will pin the face boards into place. Would you pin each board together or just pin the outer boards into the stiles/rails?

I was going to use standard Gorilla glue as i have half a bottle knocking around at home. Would it do the job as i know it's PVA based, or do i need to be thinking of something better?

 

[famas]

If you're going with stubbed tenons I'd recommend a stronger glue than pva. Because you've got no mechanical fixing from a wedge you're relying on solely the glue holding it together. Cascamite is an excellent external wood glue readily available and affordable.

You can look into hidden internal fox wedging but it's an advanced technique difficult to get right.

Personally I'd be inclined to draw bore the tenon.
The draw bore won't shrink as it's a long grain dowel. The stile may move enough to show a join around the bore but not enough to let water in, as long as you drill your hole the right size

Are the gates to be painted of stained?
If painted you can use an external 2 part filler to hide small gaps, unfortunately due to nature and softwood being more prone to movement cracks and splits will eventually occur.

 

[Martynt74]

Will order some of that then. Amazon have it on prime. Would 220g be sufficient? Based on 3 gates looking like the above. And is it this stuff?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cascamite-...18&hvtargid=pla-422148041033&psc=1&th=1&psc=1


Anything you categorise as an "advanced technique" i'm staying well clear of

Excellent, will add a draw bore in. I presume that all dowels are created equally? Based on a 45mm length tenon. Would you suggest a 9mm or 12mm dowel like this?

https://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Pin...ZpBNCbZpEzNXj8IorL8aAmuMEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds


Need to check with the wife about the finish. Painted would be better for me as it gives me the ability to hide any mistakes and imperfections. I think a clear stain would be preferable though so i think the end finish will ultimately depend on how good a job i do!

 

[famas]

That should be plenty for your needs.
Remember you only need a tiny amount of water when mixing it up, it's best to mix it into a thick paste first then slowly thin it out. If you add to much water at the start you will get a lumpy unusable mess.

Not all dowels are equal, hard wood dowels are preferable, if you can't get hold of any try to get close grain softwood ones as they will be slightly stronger.

Make sure you offset your draw bore holes, we have a little saying "to the shoulder pulls it up, from the shoulder ***** it up"

Oh and boards should be tongue and groove then slid in from the bottom of the door. You need to allow room for expansion.

 

[Martynt74]

Wickes do this hardwood (presume beech?) 12mm dowel so i'll try and pick that up. Otherwise B&Q do a 8mm beech dowel which is easier to get to.

Yeah boards are T&G and that's the plan (slide from the bottom). Also keep reminding myself to plan the boards so i cut each end equally rather than just having a full board on the left and a thin one on the right!

Will watch some Youtubes on the bore holes just to refresh my memory. I used them when i built a small staircase in a bench joinery class years ago (along with my first and only attempt at M&T joints).

 

[famas]

12mm beech dowel would be good.

Good luck with the project it should be a good one and you'll learn loads.
Any one interested in wood work gets a thumbs up in my book, we need to carry the skills on.

 

[darreny]

If draw boring just be careful not to break the timber out on the other side you're knocking through to.
If it's bare wood you are using then finish with osmo oil.
With wedges I prefer (and think it's stronger) to saw down 2/3rds of the ten on and about 8mm from the edge and drive the wedge into that cut. Drill a 5mm hole at the end of the saw cut to avoid the tenon splitting.
With the t&g use a couple of 1mm packers between your boards for spacing so you have an expansion gap. Also when measuring the boards for width there are 2 ways to measure. Mark a centre line on your rail and use either the edge of the t&g at this line or the centre of the t&g at this line and use whichever gives you the widest board at the ends.

I used to draw bore and wedge all my gates and doors and never had a single issue or complaint

 

[Martynt74]

Cheers guys

It's come at a slightly ropey time as i've been meaning to build a proper workbench for a while but not got round to it. Would've preferred to have that setup so i had something sturdy to work on. Especially for chisel work. I'm currently using folding tables and anything involving a hammer or hand plane ends up wobbling all over the place

Hoping that the use of power tools will help to some degree.

 

[Mark A]

For finishing i'd use a clear (wax free) preservative under any top coat you plan on using. Go for spirit based, rather than water based as the water based versions raise the grain and can even cause splitting when it dries I have found.

Then if going for a stain/oil, I wouldn't go too light. I went for a light Sikkens stain and even with using 3 coats of preservative, 3 base coats of Sikkens base coat and 2 top coats of Sikkens filter 7, the pine still ended up with some black staining appear a few years down the line and some sun damage. Even products that claim to have UV protection don't seem to work anywhere near as well as products with a darker pigment.

This guy does some good wood working videos, although he does tend to use mainly hand tools.

 

[Martynt74]

Yeah, i'll be using power tools so i can mess things up faster

Made a start on this on Saturday. The cordless Ryobi router is alright. However it lacks power and some elements of control. It might be good for chamfers etc but not really suitable for cutting the mortices/tenons. That meant i had to fix my old router which i cut through the power cord around 18 months ago. This is safe right





Also realised a slight flaw in my plans. There is no bloomin way i could use my table saw for cutting the tenons, given that my main top rail is a 6ft long piece of 6x3. Hence fixing the above router.



Also very glad i now have a shed and don't just have to do things outside. Means i don't have to clean up all this saw dust and have the issue of it blowing everywhere!

Also roughly cut the top rail into shape. Will use the belt sander i think to finish it off and give it a slight slant to allow for water runoff




It fits!



My only issue however is that the mortice needs to be 45mm deep and with my 1/4" router bits i can't get that deep. At most i can get around 40mm. Hence the gap you can see. Might pick up a 1/2" plunge router to replace mine. That way i can use much bigger bits. I've seen Trend do a "long reach" bit but that's £22 and feels like it'd make more sense to just spend the extra for a 1/2" router.

Ironically, had i decided to use a through tenon i could've just router through from the other side and had no issue

 

[PlacidCasual]

Use a chisel to finish your mortise rather than buy a bit. When I built my work bench I chiselled through 75mm for the leg joints and it nearly killed me, Your nearly there already use a drill to clear out the majority of the waste and then chisel to clear and clean faces.