Building survey missed obvious asbestos issue - any recourse?

it was a building survey rather than a valuation/hom******s survey.
it needs to come out as i need to run wiring up there and want to put lights in, attach a pull up bar to the joists, add insulation etc.
i've emailed the surveyor, just waiting on a reply.
 
Teknobry said:
it was a building survey rather than a valuation/hom******s survey.
it needs to come out as i need to run wiring up there and want to put lights in, attach a pull up bar to the joists, add insulation etc.
i've emailed the surveyor, just waiting on a reply.
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Pretty sure they will be covered in disclaimers / small print mate to be honest.

I hope you get a happy resolution though as asbestos removal is not cheap if done properly.

If you do go the route of having it removed, I can provide advice (if you want it) on the removal process and what you should be getting for your money. In my opinion it is best not to take risks with this material.

Whilst there are no laws stopping you from taking this stuff down yourself as a private home owner, I must stress this would not be a good idea.

If at all possible, leave it for the professionals.
 
much appreciated. to be honest i will end up doing it myself if i get no joy from them. buy the vac, i can get suits/gloves/footwear/eye protection and disposal bags from work. Sheet the doorway, just need a respirator.
then get advice on how to do it properly, lol.
 
Teknobry said:
much appreciated. to be honest i will end up doing it myself if i get no joy from them. buy the vac, i can get suits/gloves/footwear/eye protection and disposal bags from work. Sheet the doorway, just need a respirator.
then get advice on how to do it properly, lol.
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How much do you know about what you are dealing with and how best to approach it?

To do it as safe as you can you are going to need stuff with very specific specifications and buying it will trun out more expensive than having a company in.

You may be able to rent some of it though. Thermac tend to rent out quite a bit of stuff.

Regarding respirators, this is crucial. Each type of respirator with have a protection factor. Just to give an example of how nasty AIB is, if not removed safely it can give rise to fibre releases in excess of the protection factor of even the best masks (other than direct air line fed ones).

In the industry, asbestos removers will use full face powered respirators which have a APF of 40 (basically 4.0 fibres/ml effectiveness). With proper control mesures, the control limit for removal work is usually 1.0f/ml before the job stops and the control measures are reassesed. So DIY removal like what you plan to do is very risky. Additionally, you have to be clean shaven at all times when using one and in terms of proper masks also be face fitted.

Uncontrolled breaking/damage to AIB can cause up to 50f/ml. Even snapping a single board in half can cause 5-10f/ml.

AIB is terrible stuff because the kind of control measures used on most other asbestos materials are fairly redundant. It can't be injected, it repels water, it only has so much absorbancy so the surface can be damp but the middle will be bone dry.



Some things you will need:


All in all, if you don't have any experience with asbestos I still recommend you get in a proper company to do it. It seems expensive but if you want it to be done correctly and safely it is the best way to go. As you can see above, doing it properly yourself is also not cheap, plus it is fraught with risk to you and those around you if you get it wrong. I know I sound like a broken record but this is stuff you really don't want to mess around with.
 
Thought AIB was licensed so a DIYer couldn't remove it (and the tip won't take it)? Not that it's a good idea to anyway...

It's a difficult one. The rewire / new boiler is maybe a problem, but otherwise I'd probably go for painting it and leaving it in place. I'd guess you're looking at a couple of £k to get it sorted.

And it's amazing what stuff may contain Asbestos. I wrote a load of management / survey software a few years ago when I worked for a company who did Asbestos management. Floor tiles, toilet cisterns etc!
 
when it comes to your own home you can rip it down however you please, you just can't expose others to it. some council tips will take it, but need to be notified beforehand i think plus it needs double bagging.
I want it removing as i want to remove the existing lights and fit new ones, pull up bar putting in and was looking at a stairway/hatch into the house as well.
 
MuvverRussia said:
Thought AIB was licensed so a DIYer couldn't remove it (and the tip won't take it)? Not that it's a good idea to anyway...

It's a difficult one. The rewire / new boiler is maybe a problem, but otherwise I'd probably go for painting it and leaving it in place. I'd guess you're looking at a couple of £k to get it sorted.

And it's amazing what stuff may contain Asbestos. I wrote a load of management / survey software a few years ago when I worked for a company who did Asbestos management. Floor tiles, toilet cisterns etc!
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Yes, AIB is notifiable to the HSE and requires a license to remove. However, the regulations do not cover DIY in private dwellings by the owner, only commercial entities or building duty holders such as housing associations and councils. The only caveat to that would be if the private owner of the building was not living there and was renting the property out and acting as a landlord. Then they effectively become a duty holder and have to comply with the regulations (if the tenancy is being done all above board anyways). The other way the regs apply is if the owner of the dwelling employs anyone in a commercial capacity to undertake work on the property. Whether it is a sole trader or a company, they are duty bound to comply with the regulations (whether they let you know that fact or not is a different matter entirely).

As for waste, some councils will come and collect it for a fee as long as it is properly double bagged. Other waste disposal sites will accept it, depending on the amount. You should check with them first. Your other option is to pay for a wait and load skip from someone like Biffa or pay an asbestos company with a hazardous waste carriers license to come and take it away.

You will be suprised by the amount of materials that asbestos is found in. When poeple think of asbestos they generally think corrugated cement garages and pipe lagging, but that is just the tip of the iceberg.

In a typical house built in the 50's-80's it is possible to have AIB boards & cement products used in a variety of applications from garage roofs to ceiling boards to fire proofing electrics to ironing board pads to even shelves in the pantry! You can also get thermoplastic floor tiles (also known as marley tiles), asbestos adhesive that they use to stick the floor tiles down with, asbestos bitumen damp proof course, asbestos bitumen accoustic sink pads, toilet cisterns, bath panels, asbestos paper backed lino, artex, flue pipes, rope seals, drainpipes/gutterings, Eternit windowsills, flash guards/rope in electrics, felt materials and very occasionally loose fill insulation or laggings.

I would recommend anyone undertaking a project to think carefully about asbestos. People can and do expose themselves doing DIY. A family member of mine did so by ripping down a garage ceiling just like the one in the OP but with no control measures :(

This is why I hate that the law has no protection for private owners because in many instances people don't even know what they are dealing with. It is a tough one because you can't force every house buyer that buys a house built up to the year 2000 to have an asbestos survey. Even if you did, there are often materials hidden that won't be found until you start knocking the place about. So I think they key thing is education and promoting awareness as much as possible.

The other issue is tackling the blase attitudes of people in relation to asbestos. With most other site based dangers the risks are immediate, such as falls from height, electrocution, fumes, power tool injuries and so on. With asbestos the contamination it often causes is not visible with the eye so even once the asbestos is ripped out and binned, the contamination it leaves behind can mean prolongued exposures to people and the damage to health that exposure can cause is not seen till later in life.
 
So after sending them an email sunday night outlining the issue with some pictures I got a pretty standard reply back

" I was not instructed to undertake an asbestos survey of the property. I did not undertake and asbestos survey. I am not qualified to undertake an asbestos survey.

2. As your email correctly states, “by sight it is not possible to 100% certify if a material contains asbestos”.

3. It is my understanding that this type of asbestos is considered safe (so long as it is not disturbed) and no action is usually necessary.

4. Section 8 of my Building Survey report contains a general warning about asbestos, advising that “some elements of construction contain asbestos”.

5. Most houses of this type and age will contain some asbestos and your property is not unusual in that it contains asbestos insulation board."


I expected as much but it's weak. He's not qualified for electrics yet he'll comment on them, he's not qualified on gas but he'll give his opinion etc etc. His argument about it's fine as long as it's not disturbed is pointless, it needs disturbing because I have work to do on the house which is stopping me.

Next stage is 'independent' surveyor looks into it, which I doubt will be independent but a chum of his, step after that is taking it to the RICS for arbitration. There is also a civil recovery option as well.

I will exhaust all options as I feel he is in the wrong on this.

Interesting thread here:
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/property/2163275-Surveyor-missed-asbestos-in-garage
Sadly the OP hasn't updated but others have talked about their experiences.

This one is similar although I believe I have a much stronger case:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5152066
Outcome - compensation paid to remove the asbestos.

I've just replied back arguing his points and told him that if we cannot come to an agreement then I want to escalate the complaints procedure.

Also seen their are solicitors who specialise in cases like this. This is something else I might look into.
 
Teknobry said:
So after sending them an email sunday night outlining the issue with some pictures I got a pretty standard reply back

" I was not instructed to undertake an asbestos survey of the property. I did not undertake and asbestos survey. I am not qualified to undertake an asbestos survey.

2. As your email correctly states, “by sight it is not possible to 100% certify if a material contains asbestos”.

3. It is my understanding that this type of asbestos is considered safe (so long as it is not disturbed) and no action is usually necessary.

4. Section 8 of my Building Survey report contains a general warning about asbestos, advising that “some elements of construction contain asbestos”.

5. Most houses of this type and age will contain some asbestos and your property is not unusual in that it contains asbestos insulation board."


I expected as much but it's weak. He's not qualified for electrics yet he'll comment on them, he's not qualified on gas but he'll give his opinion etc etc. His argument about it's fine as long as it's not disturbed is pointless, it needs disturbing because I have work to do on the house which is stopping me.

Next stage is 'independent' surveyor looks into it, which I doubt will be independent but a chum of his, step after that is taking it to the RICS for arbitration. There is also a civil recovery option as well.

I will exhaust all options as I feel he is in the wrong on this.

Interesting thread here:
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/property/2163275-Surveyor-missed-asbestos-in-garage
Sadly the OP hasn't updated but others have talked about their experiences.

This one is similar although I believe I have a much stronger case:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5152066
Outcome - compensation paid to remove the asbestos.

I've just replied back arguing his points and told him that if we cannot come to an agreement then I want to escalate the complaints procedure.

Also seen their are solicitors who specialise in cases like this. This is something else I might look into.
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Did you instruct the surveyors of your planned project before hand?

Did you employ the surveyors yourself or were they working for the mortgage company?

Good luck with it, but in my experience these surveys are more for a bit of piece of mind for the buyer and to satisfy the red tape requirements of the mortgage company. A structural surveyor will not likely be trained or qualified to comment on asbestos. Even trained asbestos surveyors cannot say if something is asbestos or not until it has been analysed in a lab, they can only say it might be. The surveyor has covered that base with section 8 of his report - as I suspected he would do.

This situation is why I feel an asbestos survey when buying a home is a good idea. They are far cheaper than building surveys too with a Management Survey, for example, probably costing less than £300 all in.

I hope you manage to get it sorted, though.
 
Farley vs Skinner is the case law you should understand before you release the hounds. Was the scope of services explicit in an asbestos survey or identifying the possibility of a survey? If it was important to you you should have been specific.

Did you say you were intending to make alterations and wanted a survey to asses its suitability?

If the scope was to value the property they may well [in point 5] defend by saying the property is valued at no more or less than a similar property which could be easily proved.

The case went to high court and probably cost thousands to prove a point, the damages here would only be your financial loss, what is your financial loss?
 
It looks like he has a defined scope within this type of survey and asbestos -being outside of his expertise and the costs for sampling/testing not included in the scope or fee - isn't included, however a general note saying that "some elements of construction contain asbestos" is in the report.
The only reason it is a problem for you is because you want to alter the property - the survey only reports on the current state of the property and makes no comment on potential for alteration.
I'm not sure if there is much to pursue in this case, unless there is something within the scope of works or the instruction asking for a specific comment on the potential for alterations and/or identifying specific instances of asbestos - the guy didn't "miss an obvious issue", he wasn't instructed to identify or test for it
 
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the_r_sole said:
It looks like he has a defined scope within this type of survey and asbestos -being outside of his expertise and the costs for sampling/testing not included in the scope or fee - isn't included, however a general note saying that "some elements of construction contain asbestos" is in the report.
The only reason it is a problem for you is because you want to alter the property - the survey only reports on the current state of the property and makes no comment on potential for alteration.
I'm not sure if there is much to pursue in this case, unless there is something within the scope of works or the instruction asking for a specific comment on the potential for alterations and/or identifying specific instances of asbestos - the guy didn't "miss an obvious issue", he wasn't instructed to identify or test for it
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The argument about not being qualified is fantastically pointless if he has made any comment on the state of the Gas and Electric in the property as he will not be qualified to comment on those and I'll be he mentions them. The generic paragraph should also not hold water if there is obvious asbestos.

Sadly he will likely wriggle out of it, surveyors are a bit of a waste of space the general surveys they perform are full of caveats, maybe's and get out clauses which for me makes them pretty pointless.
 
a1ex2001 said:
The argument about not being qualified is fantastically pointless if he has made any comment on the state of the Gas and Electric in the property as he will not be qualified to comment on those and I'll be he mentions them. The generic paragraph should also not hold water if there is obvious asbestos.

Sadly he will likely wriggle out of it, surveyors are a bit of a waste of space the general surveys they perform are full of caveats, maybe's and get out clauses which for me makes them pretty pointless.
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I would imagine comment on gas/electrics will also be qualified with a statement that it should be checked by a competent professional, they will be making comment on what is there to see.
"obvious asbestos"? every asbestos survey i've seen requires testing to see what exactly the make up of any potential asbestos is and it's potential danger. Given the low risk nature of this potential asbestos, the statement that elements of construction contain asbestos is all this type of survey has to say - unless of course the op has instructed a survey which includes any formal advice on the potential conversion of the garage.

As i said before building surveys are generally so non committal on anything that I would never pay for one (aside from a specialist when required) - but looking at what was included in the report (well, the response from the surveyor) which wasnt apparent in the op - I can't see any liability on the surveyor for the op having a slightly more complex job when altering the building
 
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Had a similar issue, I share the views that a survey is a waste of money unless independently commissioned by yourself.

Many years ago I was purchasing a house and paid for an expensive survey, turned up some issues, mainly already known but one key point was an inspection of the boiler due to a failing/failed item as found when testing.
This required a revisit from the surveyor (of course chargeable). We paid the fee had the re-survey, came back fine so bought the house. 2 days after moving in the boiler failed.
Called a family friend who was a gas fitter who said the bit that the surveyor had mentioned had been wacked with a hammer, was some sticking valve or gizmo or something and was a common way to get a basically worn out part to work for a few days but would repeatedly keep failing as basically worn out.
Went back to surveyor and said what the hell, he just came back with "the vendor said it had been fixed"
Their general get outs and terms mean you are highly unlikely to have any come back.

I agree they appear to give quite specific instructions and assessments until you need to quote one then you will practically always find one word that gives them an out (eg view, probable, possible, likely, potential....)
 
BuffetSlayer said:
Did you instruct the surveyors of your planned project before hand?

Did you employ the surveyors yourself or were they working for the mortgage company?
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The surveyor was appointed independently of the mortgage valuation. I wanted a full building survey done on the house before I bought it. I gave instruction to the feasibility of knocking the wall down in the garage to extend under the full width of the house, to which he has commented on in his report.

maccapacca said:
Farley vs Skinner is the case law you should understand before you release the hounds. Was the scope of services explicit in an asbestos survey or identifying the possibility of a survey? If it was important to you you should have been specific.

Did you say you were intending to make alterations and wanted a survey to asses its suitability?

If the scope was to value the property they may well [in point 5] defend by saying the property is valued at no more or less than a similar property which could be easily proved.

The case went to high court and probably cost thousands to prove a point, the damages here would only be your financial loss, what is your financial loss?
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No, i did not explicitly instruct for an asbestos survey.
Yes, when commissioning his firm I asked for them to look into the possibility of making alterations to the garage, although did not explicitly state the ceiling (although ceiling would be altered as to take down that wall - a supporting wall - would need modifications to the ceiling in order to support the house above).
He wasn't asked to value the property (although he did anyway) as a separate valuation survey was carried out on behalf of the mortgage company.
My financial loss will be the cost of removing the AIB.
 
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