Bulk or cut at 13% body fat - DEXA scan

[Yucca]

Evening all

Further to my previous threads over the last year I have finally made it down to a respectable weight/body fat.

Started off at 106 KG, body fat estimate 30% or more and severely unfit. Its now been 18 months of hard work at the gym, football weekly and near perfect nutrition.

Had my DEXA scan last week and iv come in at 79kg with 13.1% body fat. Very happy with the results but can't decide whether to keep cutting till I get some real ab definition or start bulking.

Thoughts welcome !

 

[Kris_90]

It's winter so bulk for a couple of months then cut for summer

 

[Rids]

First off - fantastic work, thats amazing progress and you should be proud of yourself.

I imagine I'll be in a similar place in the next few weeks, and I'm going to be having to make the same decision.

I guess it all depends on your goals, for me I'll be looking at a clean bulk, maybe 250 calories above my TDEE for a couple of months and see how it gos.

 

[Yucca]

First off - fantastic work, thats amazing progress and you should be proud of yourself.

I imagine I'll be in a similar place in the next few weeks, and I'm going to be having to make the same decision.

I guess it all depends on your goals, for me I'll be looking at a clean bulk, maybe 250 calories above my TDEE for a couple of months and see how it gos.

Thank you! People who know me can't believe iv done so much in such little time. I have been very very strict though hence the results.

I like the idea of cutting further to see some real definition. And everything I ready online says get to 10-11% body fat before you bulk for best results.

Though it will mean a further reduction from 2100c to 1900c for a couple months. Peasant calories!! You don't get much food for 2100c let alone less. Im already down to a 32 waist and even medium tops are loose on me. And everyone keeps saying I look too skinny and scrawny. Im not sure I agree as iv retained most of my strength throughout the weight loss! In fact I think I'm stronger. Perhaps its just because we are used to seeing most people around us much larger.

 

[Kaka]

Clean bulk, the best of both worlds.

 

[Yucca]

Clean bulk, the best of both worlds.

As per my research you will still put on 50/50 muscle/body fat best case scenario....

 

[Jester*]

Only you really know your body, so do what works for you to get to your end goals.

I eat to maximise performance, do not count calories or macros and have no idea what my body fat is . Just eat often and eat clean, seems to work for me.

 

[Kaka]

As per my research you will still put on 50/50 muscle/body fat best case scenario....

50/50 ratio? That's not a clean bulk then.

Assuming you're eating just above maintenance calories (with the correct macronutrient intake) and on a training programme, you shouldn't put on anywhere near that amount of body fat.

 

[tom_e]

Only you really know your body, so do what works for you to get to your end goals.

I eat to maximise performance, do not count calories or macros and have no idea what my body fat is . Just eat often and eat clean, seems to work for me.

This pretty much.

Personally I'd be bored of cutting in your scenario and would quite like to have the extra food to play with around Christmas but then again there's no danger of me every being near 13% BF

 

[Yucca]

50/50 ratio? That's not a clean bulk then.

Assuming you're eating just above maintenance calories (with the correct macronutrient intake) and on a training programme, you shouldn't put on anywhere near that amount of body fat.

How much above maintenance would you recommend? 10%? 15%? 20%?

The higher the surplus the faster I will put on muscle but the more fat gain. But then on a very small surplus I think you would get very slow gains?

In relation to clean and correct macronutrients - Body weight kg x 2 for protein. The rest carbs and fats. More carbs on gym days. Less on rest days. Having has such great results I'm pretty confident I can get the diet bang on, or as close as possible.

 

[Rids]

What I'd be tempted to do would be to ramp up slowly - bring your body to about where you think maintanence is for a couple of weeks, keep an eye on your weight and measurements and ramp up slowly from there.

Out of interest who did you use to get your DEXA scan? I'm tempted to give it a go at the end of the year to get a true picture of my BF before I decide how to proceed.

 

[Somnambulist]

As you're aware, fat can be lost much quicker than muscle can be gained. At 13% I would perhaps try and lose a bit more and get to around 10%, find what you need to eat to maintain over a couple of weeks to give you an idea of cals/macros, then start gaining - aiming for something like a 0.5% increase in total body weight per month (v.s. 0.5% a week loss when dieting), as per Eric Helms recommendations - until you're back at around 15-17% then repeating the process. You typically want to be able to stay in a gaining phase for an extended period of time so the more of a buffer you have by starting from a lean base, the longer you'll be able to gain weight before you start looking fluffy and feel like it's time to diet. Also I'm sure you've read about P-ratio and how the less lean you are, the worse your muscle/fat ration gets (although obviously you don't need to be single-digits lean).

As per my research you will still put on 50/50 muscle/body fat best case scenario....

Excluding god-tier genetics and drugs which alter nutrient partitioning efficiency, muscle gain in a small surplus isn't really any different to a large surplus, you just get fatter quicker with the latter. Clean/dirty bulking is really better looked at as lean-bulking/fulking since it's not the composition of the overall diet that affects body composition as much as the size of the surplus. The difficulty with the former is a small surplus might not end up being much of a surplus at all given when you're in a gaining phase your TDEE typically ends up increasing due to being able to handle more volume, more food = higher amount of cals burnt by thermic effect of food, NEAT typically goes up, so you can end up spinning your wheels.

Further reading:
https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/muscle-gain-math.html/
https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/general-philosophies-of-muscle-mass-gain.html/

 

[Yucca]

As you're aware, fat can be lost much quicker than muscle can be gained. At 13% I would perhaps try and lose a bit more and get to around 10%, find what you need to eat to maintain over a couple of weeks to give you an idea of cals/macros, then start gaining - aiming for something like a 0.5% increase in total body weight per month (v.s. 0.5% a week loss when dieting), as per Eric Helms recommendations - until you're back at around 15-17% then repeating the process. You typically want to be able to stay in a gaining phase for an extended period of time so the more of a buffer you have by starting from a lean base, the longer you'll be able to gain weight before you start looking fluffy and feel like it's time to diet. Also I'm sure you've read about P-ratio and how the less lean you are, the worse your muscle/fat ration gets (although obviously you don't need to be single-digits lean).



Excluding god-tier genetics and drugs which alter nutrient partitioning efficiency, muscle gain in a small surplus isn't really any different to a large surplus, you just get fatter quicker with the latter. Clean/dirty bulking is really better looked at as lean-bulking/fulking since it's not the composition of the overall diet that affects body composition as much as the size of the surplus. The difficulty with the former is a small surplus might not end up being much of a surplus at all given when you're in a gaining phase your TDEE typically ends up increasing due to being able to handle more volume, more food = higher amount of cals burnt by thermic effect of food, NEAT typically goes up, so you can end up spinning your wheels.

Further reading:
https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/muscle-gain-math.html/
https://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/general-philosophies-of-muscle-mass-gain.html/

Very helpful thank you. Iv been cutting on 2100 calories. But now that I'm down to 79kg I'm confident that 2100 is about maintenance.

I have 13.1% BF which is just over 10kg fat. To get to 11% BF lets say that means I need to loose 1.53kg FAT. But surely I will loose muscle at the same time? So maybe I need to loose more like 2-3kg to equal 1.53kg fat loss to get to 11%?

Anyone help me with the maths?!

 

[Somnambulist]

Very helpful thank you. Iv been cutting on 2100 calories. But now that I'm down to 79kg I'm confident that 2100 is about maintenance.

I have 13.1% BF which is just over 10kg fat. To get to 11% BF lets say that means I need to loose 1.53kg FAT. But surely I will loose muscle at the same time? So maybe I need to loose more like 2-3kg to equal 1.53kg fat loss to get to 11%?

Anyone help me with the maths?!

Lean tissue loss will be minimised as long as you continue to resistance train at the same intensity you were before and consume adequete dietary protein; even very aggressive deficits don't tend to result in muscle loss as long as those two things are adhered to, so I wouldn't worry about it. It's not until you get REALLY peeled that it becomes something you should be thinking about and you just want some ab definition, not striated glutes so it's not really an issue. As said, aim to lose around 0.5% of your total body weight per week - if your rate is faster than that add some calories in, if it's slower, take some away - you don't have to over-complicate it too much and by using a % of body weight rather than a set number of kg/lbs it scales the rate of loss sensibly (as people with higher bf%'s can afford to lose fat faster as there's more of it and it's easy to mobilise). You'll look flat but that's just a lack of muscle glycogen/intramuscular water, and as soon as you up your intake that'll all come back. If you can see your abs more clearly after you've dropped 1.5kg, cool, if it takes looking 2-3kg to see them, then that's how much you needed to lose, but you shouldn't be losing muscle as long as you're eating and training properly.

 

[Yucca]

The reason I used the complex figures in my previous post is because I want to know when I get to 11%. Next dexa isn't for 6 months yet.

So if I work out what weight I need to be at to have 11% bf I have a goal. We can estimate fat/muscle loss ratio. 80/20 then?

 

[Kaka]

How much above maintenance would you recommend? 10%? 15%? 20%?

The higher the surplus the faster I will put on muscle but the more fat gain. But then on a very small surplus I think you would get very slow gains?

In relation to clean and correct macronutrients - Body weight kg x 2 for protein. The rest carbs and fats. More carbs on gym days. Less on rest days. Having has such great results I'm pretty confident I can get the diet bang on, or as close as possible.

I would personally go 200-250 calories above maintenance for a few weeks and review. Unfortunately it's not as simple as eating more = the faster you'll put on muscle. Genetics will play a large part on the amount you can attain, as well as the discussed diet and training. For your standard natural gym goer though, building lean muscle mass is quite a slow progress so you need to be realistic on your goals.

 

[Yucca]

Why do people usually bulk for several months?

Why not bulk one month then cut one month etc Surly this would result in keeping body fat low all the time?

And your not going up and down clothes sizes every few months !?

 

[Kaka]

Always having to watch your calorie intake means it's hard mentally and physically going on a cut, as I'm sure you may have experienced.

Jumping between the two takes time to readjust. It's easier to do a bulk than cut.

 

[Somnambulist]

If we look at the drivers of muscle growth (assuming sufficient calories) like progressive tension overload, beyond the beginner stage you simply can't keep adding weight to the bar every session, and need time to bring your lifts up. Dieting typically involves training to maintain your lifts and not regress. Someone who has been in a surplus for 8 months is far more likely to have made real meaningful progress with their lifts than someone who has yo-yoed between gaining and dieting for that same period, and therefore they should have grown way more as a result. The yo-yo'er will unlikely have made much progress at all, and no progress = no gains.