Bulk Whey?

[Ultra_Extreme]

www.myprotein.co.uk one of the best places to get it, much better quality than h and b crap, also there is a link to the forums on their main site.
use this code MP32093 if you want 5% off your first order


I aim to please

Best thing about MP is that, inevitably at some point someone who knows nothing will come up to you and spew:- "Do you even know whats in that crap you take" And you can reply "I know the exact molecular content of each powder and its approved by EC regulated sports nutrition bodies, do YOU know whats in the crap you eat?"



After a while though you can reduce it to a quick flex of the biceps and "No" with a knowing wink

 

[WillSpengler]

Have to agree with that, it's one of the many things I love about MP.

Not only do they have great customer service (who take requests!), a great community on the forums, great selection and great prices, they also tell you exactly what is in the product, which is excellent! Let's you tweak exactly what you are getting

Must start posting on the forums over there more often, but the lifting has been seriously reduced in the past 9 months or so

 

[tom_e]

Best thing about MP is that, inevitably at some point someone who knows nothing will come up to you and spew:- "Do you even know whats in that crap you take" And you can reply "I know the exact molecular content of each powder and its approved by EC regulated sports nutrition bodies, do YOU know whats in the crap you eat?"



After a while though you can reduce it to a quick flex of the biceps and "No" with a knowing wink

Its true I recommended them to my mate the other day who is a maximuscle devote and he just sort of looked and me and basically said i dont take cheap crap, I just smiled if he wants to dump loads of cash on stuff packed with filler and crap then its up to him

 

[Ultra_Extreme]

Its true I recommended them to my mate the other day who is a maximuscle devote and he just sort of looked and me and basically said i dont take cheap crap, I just smiled if he wants to dump loads of cash on stuff packed with filler and crap then its up to him

exactly, truth is maximuscle will actually be fine for bodybuilding, but he will spend a shedload more than you will for the same effect.

 

[WillSpengler]

Its true I recommended them to my mate the other day who is a maximuscle devote and he just sort of looked and me and basically said i dont take cheap crap, I just smiled if he wants to dump loads of cash on stuff packed with filler and crap then its up to him

I've got a mate who does the same. He is also one of these people who is built like a twig (is reasonably 'toned' ), but can't put any bulk on.

He is on that maximuscle stuff, talk about a rip off! I tried it once and almost threw up, whatever thickening agent they add is just not needed!

 

[Ultra_Extreme]

I've got a mate who does the same. He is also one of these people who is built like a twig (is reasonably 'toned' ), but can't put any bulk on.

The reason for that is most likely not the maximuscle but the amount he uses. Most people i know who use £40 5lb tubs take 1-2 shakes a day and eat like regular folk. Cant really blame them with the cost! I take about 5 shakes made with WPC at 60-90g WPC per shake. Or i take at least 3 and eat at least 2 solid protein packed meals (depends what im doing composition wise). I know lots of people like your m8, slim and toned but no mass, they are always like "how come you put on mass so quick" i tell them its the food but i think they all assume im on the juice or something cos they never follow my advice.

 

[WillSpengler]

It isnt always the case, different metabolisms and such.

I was only on one two shakes a day, and i don't have too rich a protein packed diet, but i get enough. 5 (of the recommended size) is probably excess tbh, most of that protein would be going to waste. But nothing wrong with having it readily avalible to the body. When i get back into it im gonna start doing 3-4 smaller shakes a day.

One thing that most people never seem to take on board is that carbohydrates are just as important, and i'd say it's probably more important to have a bit of excess carbs than excess protein.

One thing that I love about people who take the maximuscle stuff, well, my mate. The thing that put him off MP was that it wouldnt have the extra stuff that Maximuscle puts in, I told him he could make a custom mix if he wanted, but he said no, because maximuscle have all this extra stuff in it (which he didnt have a clue what it was). Why would you be piling something in when you dont know what it is!

 

[Ultra_Extreme]

I call maximuscle et al, drink-and-forget shakes, which a lot of folk on here dont like, i do hold the belief that the blend of isolate, concentrate, sugars and enzymes CAN help towards your goals. If i go away im more likely to take a tub of ON100% or Reflex or something than a big vat of MP unbranded (if just to get by customs!), but day to day ou cant beat the clean stuff.

On the subject of quantity, it depends on your goals, and as you correctly point out, metabolism. For me i gain increasingly up to about 4g per lb of bodyweight give or take, others gain on 0.5g. I wouldnt preach how much to take to anyone its just very common for people to take too little.

 

[WillSpengler]

Wow, that's pretty hefty. Remember that you could be hammering your liver if you are taking in that much.

If I was to take in that much i'd be on almost 1Kg of protein a day!

While it may be more inconvenient, see what happens if you take twice as many shakes a day where each one has 25% of what your originals did. So in total you are taking half the amount of protein, but twice as often. Your body will have trouble making use of most of the protein in larger shakes.

And yeah, the mixture will help, but not optimally, i think it's important to research and experiment and find what is best for you, which is great because you can use MP to get all the individual stuff you need.

For instance ive got a big tub of whey concentrate, and smaller ones of leucine, BCAA and creatine mono.

(used to use CEE seperatley, but that taste!)

From a lot of the research i've done about the place, milk protein seems to be the way to go for gains.

 

[Ultra_Extreme]

Wow, that's pretty hefty. Remember that you could be hammering your liver if you are taking in that much.

Yeah but i drink 25 less pints than most of my mates so i think it balances out.

If I was to take in that much i'd be on almost 1Kg of protein a day!

Yeah i get through the stuff alright. about 800g a day bulking but tbh i try to keep it down to 4-500 otherwise the cost gets a bit silly for only marginal gains. Maybe if i went on a juice cycle id up it to 4g perlb

While it may be more inconvenient, see what happens if you take twice as many shakes a day where each one has 25% of what your originals did. So in total you are taking half the amount of protein, but twice as often. Your body will have trouble making use of most of the protein in larger shakes.

Ive estimated my absorption rate of about 60g/hour but really need to get some post intake bloodwork done to see how close i am, there are no private sports health places near enough to me where i can get my blood amino's done at the right time.

And yeah, the mixture will help, but not optimally, i think it's important to research and experiment and find what is best for you, which is great because you can use MP to get all the individual stuff you need.

Yeahi use the retail stuff as a pancea for when i wanna forget about nutrition and get on with life

For instance ive got a big tub of whey concentrate, and smaller ones of leucine, BCAA and creatine mono.

(used to use CEE seperatley, but that taste!)

From a lot of the research i've done about the place, milk protein seems to be the way to go for gains.

Whey and milk = for the win. But i think its very important to add egg and meat protein into any bodybuilding diet. I take in almost no carbs in my diet i just supplement fine oats into my shakes on training days. For me thats more than enough whether cutting or bulking, but again for others they will need far more.

The one lesson ive learned in bodybuilding so far is that if you follow the generally accepted rules too closely you will end up with the 'generally accepted' results, poor ones. Always research what works for you.

 

[Chong Warrior]

Wow, that's pretty hefty. Remember that you could be hammering your liver if you are taking in that much.

Do you have anything to back that up though? or is it just what you've heard?

 

[WillSpengler]

Your liver filters basically everything which your body is absorbing.

Anything which you take will have an effect on it, I don't know what levels are required (generally) before you start causing excess damage, but it is just like with alcohol, your liver takes a pounding when it is metabolising alcohol, and it is your liver which is reponsible for metabolising protein.

 

[Ultra_Extreme]

Your liver filters basically everything which your body is absorbing.

Anything which you take will have an effect on it, I don't know what levels are required (generally) before you start causing excess damage, but it is just like with alcohol, your liver takes a pounding when it is metabolising alcohol, and it is your liver which is reponsible for metabolising protein.

Well if we are sticking to anecdotal evidence, then i contest that my father who drinks as many pints of beer per day as i do whey shakes, at age 60, is in BUPA confirmed 'very good' health, the only reason i can suppose that you believe my health to be at risk must be that you consider the toxicity of whey to exceed that of alcohol in a human body of average standards.

 

[WillSpengler]

"anecdotal evidence" aye?

Just like the smokers who smoke 20 a day and say "I don't have cancer, smoking can't give you cancer".

 

[Ultra_Extreme]

"anecdotal evidence" aye?

Just like the smokers who smoke 20 a day and say "I don't have cancer, smoking can't give you cancer".

Thats not the premise of anecdotal evidence at all. Smoking does cause cancer, but not in everyone. Im sure somehow somewhere amongst the billions of people in the world high protein dieting has caused someone liver damage, damage they would however probably have incurred elswhere were it not for their diet.

My 2 main points of note are:

1) dont make blanket statments about something unless the fact is universally true of every human being of any gender/race/state of health/genetic makeup

2) dont make out that things a bodybuilder does, when properly informed as many of us are, are unhealthy as when you compare a bodybuilder to a normal person,
micromanaged diet vs poor diet,
vitamins and minerals vs 'whatever is in that burger'
quality body shape vs obese or skinny shapeless mass,
regular exercise vs little or neglicable activity.
You find that there is no way a bodybuilding reigieme could ever be more harmful than simply 'not being a bodybuilder' unless of course you count the meatheads weho abuse steroids without research or medical supervision which is plain silly and an extreme.

 

[heeeed]

I expect your liver will be able to cope with the breakdown, but you will have high levels of certain metabolites so both kidneys and liver will need to work harder to excrete these metabolites. You almost certainly run a higher risk of problems such as gout on an extreme high protein diet, but that doesn't mean you WILL get problems. 4g/lb does seem a little excessive though even compared to most body building diets. I would imagine if you got your renal function checked with that kind of intake your function would look terrible with a very high creatinine level and terrible GFR as it is working so hard to break down all that protein.

as far as an extreme body builders diet micromanaging everything, I would be careful in thinking that it is an inherantly healthier diet than Joe public. I am not stating that it is terrible and we'll all drop dead, but you are putting excessive loads on the body that it wasn't designed for

 

[WillSpengler]

Thats not the premise of anecdotal evidence at all. Smoking does cause cancer, but not in everyone. Im sure somehow somewhere amongst the billions of people in the world high protein dieting has caused someone liver damage, damage they would however probably have incurred elswhere were it not for their diet.

50 years ago they blaimed the cancer caused by smoking on a gene which caused a chronic inflamation of the throat. People who smoked did so because it soothed the throat, and it was this gene which caused cancer, not smoking.

My 2 main points of note are:

1) dont make blanket statments about something unless the fact is universally true of every human being of any gender/race/state of health/genetic makeup

2) dont make out that things a bodybuilder does, when properly informed as many of us are, are unhealthy as when you compare a bodybuilder to a normal person,
micromanaged diet vs poor diet,
vitamins and minerals vs 'whatever is in that burger'
quality body shape vs obese or skinny shapeless mass,
regular exercise vs little or neglicable activity.
You find that there is no way a bodybuilding reigieme could ever be more harmful than simply 'not being a bodybuilder' unless of course you count the meatheads weho abuse steroids without research or medical supervision which is plain silly and an extreme.

Your liver metabolises protein. More protein = more work = more damage. Simple. This is especially true when trying to deal with excesses (hence why earlier i was saying less protein but more often will work just as well if not better, you'll take up a higher proportion overall and induce less stress on the system)

Just because somebody becomes a bodybuilder does not mean that their body changes fundamentally. It will become quicker and more efficient at metabolising components of diet, but it still has to metabolise them.

I never said that it would affect everyone either, it is just a risk that is out there, something people should be more aware of. Ignorance isnt and excuse for arrogance.

 

[Ultra_Extreme]

First in answer to both the above, i dont consume 800g of protein per day all year, nothing like that, its an example of a very heavy bulk. I stick at the much less excessive 2g/lb mostly. Dont get the idea that i advocate massive doses of protein as healthy, as granny always says "everything in moderation dearie"

heeed: You sound very biologically knowledgable m8, for your info i get bi-annual blood work done with emphasis on renal function, and this IS down to concern over my excessive protein cycles and also a lot of the supps i take. As well as the fact that im far from a tee-totaller so i like to keep it in check, thus far i have had 'perfect' results which I am reliably informed means that although i may well be exceeding certain perameters at certain times in a year i do NOT incur any lasting damage.

Will: Firstly, 50 years ago was a long time medically, and its all very well to say "ah you say that now but in 50 years the world will be flat". No it wont, and medicine and basic biological facts are not going to change. Biology and medicine 50 years ago was based on things that were often pure conjecture and often fiction. Many of the core principles of biology have since been proven and many will never change as they are simply FACT. 50 years ago cancer might well have been caused by fairies, as there was no other means to identify the cause. Now however we are aware of carcinogens, genetic pre-dispositions, mutations and many other actual things that are based in solid fact. So you can get as philosophical as you like about the future but you cannot say that because the human race of the 50's didnt know what caused a mysterious and fatal illness that the modern human cannot possibly comprehend the implications of something as simple as a high protein intake, its just not the same thing and somewhat akin to suggesting that we will figure out the earth is not a sphere one day, unlikely.

Secondly you talk about the liver as if damaging it is somehow mortally wounding. As one of the only major organs that is regenerable the liver is being damaged and repaired all the time, what you need to focus on is the loading perameters and whether they are being exceeded, i believe a protein intake of 4g/lb falls well withing the capabilities of the liver, i think if you throw other toxins and large amounts of alcohol on top THAT is where you will start to see problems arise, your average bodybuilder is unlikely to allow that however and any that do are highly foolish.

Finally if you labelling me as arrogant, or ignorant for that matter then maybe you should watch what you post as you risk being hypocritical, you're behaving as if you are right come hell or high water, giving little explaination for your views and have no other evidence to back them up. Lack of evidence is ignorance and preaching that which has no evidence is arrogant.

I am neither, im well informed and have evidence to back up anything that i have not clearly labelled as supposition.

 

[WillSpengler]

Will: Firstly, 50 years ago was a long time medically, and its all very well to say "ah you say that now but in 50 years the world will be flat". No it wont, and medicine and basic biological facts are not going to change. Biology and medicine 50 years ago was based on things that were often pure conjecture and often fiction. Many of the core principles of biology have since been proven and many will never change as they are simply FACT. 50 years ago cancer might well have been caused by fairies, as there was no other means to identify the cause. Now however we are aware of carcinogens, genetic pre-dispositions, mutations and many other actual things that are based in solid fact. So you can get as philosophical as you like about the future but you cannot say that because the human race of the 50's didnt know what caused a mysterious and fatal illness that the modern human cannot possibly comprehend the implications of something as simple as a high protein intake, its just not the same thing and somewhat akin to suggesting that we will figure out the earth is not a sphere one day, unlikely.

I'm getting at the fact that people can try to twist scientific proof's that they do not agree with. I was drawing parallels between what was happening then with the general attitudes of taking excess protein. It is known to cause damage if excess protein is consumed.

Don't get the point you are trying to make with the last bit there, this is a know issue with excess protein consumption, abit one that people tend to disregard.

Secondly you talk about the liver as if damaging it is somehow mortally wounding. As one of the only major organs that is regenerable the liver is being damaged and repaired all the time, what you need to focus on is the loading perameters and whether they are being exceeded, i believe a protein intake of 4g/lb falls well withing the capabilities of the liver, i think if you throw other toxins and large amounts of alcohol on top THAT is where you will start to see problems arise, your average bodybuilder is unlikely to allow that however and any that do are highly foolish.

Peoples livers can be more susceptable to damage from different things.

Yes, your liver regenerates itself a lot more than any other organ, if it didnt it wouldnt work. But excess protein intake causes more stress on the system, excess stress on the system means a higher turnover rate is required, this can increase the chances of Cirrhosis and even cancer (as increasing the turnover rate of any cell lince can do). Just because it regenerates itself it does not mean it isn't going to cause harm if you cause excess stresses to a system.

I also don't follow the point you are trying to make, is that like saying it's ok to be an alcoholic as long as you dont take anything else? I causes damage, sure if you add more things it increases the chance of more severe damage in a smaller time frame. And also I'd say the assumption that BBs don't drink is probably a daft one

Finally if you labelling me as arrogant, or ignorant for that matter then maybe you should watch what you post as you risk being hypocritical, you're behaving as if you are right come hell or high water, giving little explaination for your views and have no other evidence to back them up. Lack of evidence is ignorance and preaching that which has no evidence is arrogant.

I am neither, im well informed and have evidence to back up anything that i have not clearly labelled as supposition.

I am not calling you ignorant or arrogant, that is just the BB community in general, especially on stances which they disagree with, just as many will say that steroids don't cause any harm (which you can't deny there are plenty out there who think that). I'm not saying the risks are the same, but because the risks are lower does not mean they are non-existant.

I did back up my claims, if you understand the mechanisms by which the liver metabolises components of diet, you will understand that stressing it increases the damage and increase the risk of disease.

 

[Ultra_Extreme]

I think we are at cross purposes, you seem to be arguing that any stress on the system is bad and im simply saying that stress in moderation in most folk is not going to be detrimental.

For example, alcohol again, if we take 2 people, one teetotaller and one guy who drinks in moderation most days. Are you saying that he will be any less healthy than the first? Because thats my problem with your argument, you seem to be saying that he would be tangibly less healthy because he stresses his liver more, however i contend that he wont. And again i stress the word TANGIBLY, as in would it show in normal circumstances.

I am not saying its ok to be an alcoholic as i believe the damage caused to the liver by alcoholism is far in excess of what the body can tolerate for prolonged periods. Although i lack the evidence i would suppose that the damage caused by excessive protein intake is far less.

Its like what you say about steroids, sure saying they do no harm is crazy. But saying that they WILL do harm in the sense they will do long term damage is equally flippant. Sensible long term steroid use doesnt cause long term serious side effects in everyone or even most people who use them. It's only when that use is not sensible that things go wrong.

Also you are again saying that a high protein intake IS harmful when i am living proof that it IS NOT. And whilst that proof may be limited to me and my genetics it is proof that a human need not come to harm taking high levels of protein, which in turn means that you cant make the blanket assumption that high protein = harmful. as it is not, it is only in some people.