can any tft rival a crt?

mrk said:
... because quite frankly at 178 degrees h/v it's pretty much almost 90 degree from any angle unlike the 160~ on a TN/MVA so unless you're using your TFT at a 90 degree angle I fail to see how you can spot the poor viewing angles on the Dell at all.
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The 178 degrees number they quote is the point where the screen is one tenth as bright as from head on.

Here's a little test - set your desktop to black and then look at it from 45 degrees up and left diagonally and tell me what happens to the black colour on the screen. Of course I don't use my screen like that, but I don't think you can reasonably claim that the viewing angles are 90 degrees at any angle :)
 
Wow it's amazing how much gobbledey-gook is still present when comparing LCD's vs CRT's!

I play a LOT of FPS games and my NEC GX2 with its' AS-IPS panel beats the crap out of any CRT i've ever owned in every area that matters, and i've owned several good ones ranging from Compaq to Sony. I notice no ghosting and no blurring while playing, and blacks are deep and well... black really.

Never would I go back to a CRT, they weigh a ton, use too much power, and ruin your eyesight. This whole "nothing comes close to CRT's" seems to be a stigma purveyed by people who don't own an LCD and obsess over stats and figures and reviews showing the merest after-image as though it's going to actually be noticed during playing. Well i'm a fussh sod myself and I assure you that no matter how fast-paced the games I play my NEC performs flawlessly. I really wouldn't change it for the world!
 
fish99 said:
The 178 degrees number they quote is the point where the screen is one tenth as bright as from head on.

Here's a little test - set your desktop to black and then look at it from 45 degrees up and left diagonally and tell me what happens to the black colour on the screen. Of course I don't use my screen like that, but I don't think you can reasonably claim that the viewing angles are 90 degrees at any angle :)
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The black colour does not change but rather the IPS panel technology itself employs a golden like tinge on top to the whole screen on black backgrounds which kind of moves around the surface of the screen as you move about - it's not a trait of viewing angles but a trait of panel technology itself which I think you are mistaking it for a viewing angle issue.

You can easily verify this by havign a screen with mixed colours on and notice that from any angle the colour saturation and purity remains constant - if viewing angles were an issue as you describe then the colours would shift like they do on MVA and TN panels.

I have had 3x 2007WFPs and none of them had any colour shifting at any viewing angle within 178 degrees and I have photos proving this too which I have posted many times here before. I can also record a DV video if you'd like further proof.
 
It's also worth noting in the bigger debate, that most people's experience here are being based on the consumer panels available for gaming/general use.

When you get up into something like NEC's Spectraview Pro range costing many thousands of pounds, you are in a different world of image quality. However, they are probably not much good for gaming as they are built primarily for accurate Adobe colour reproduction.
 
fish99 said:
Research won't escape the fact that TN panels have poor viewing angles, and panels which aren't TN are slower and have more lag. You can't get both in one screen currently.

Also there's a difference between saying response time, lag, viewing angles etc are 'good enough' and saying they are as good as on a CRT. I agree they are good enough, I don't find the blurring on my 2007WFP a big problem, or the bit of lag it has, or the viewing angles. They are there but they don't bother me. However I would never claim it can rival a CRT in those areas, it just can't.

Black depth is another matter though, that's definitely not up to scratch on any LCD I've seen, including 2 high quality S-IPS and 2 high quality PVA panels. What you actually said about black depth is that it's poor except on good quality screens. I'm saying it's poor on all LCDs since I've used 4 good quality screens.

It's a debate worth having in the context of the new screen technologies on the way like OLED, SED and FED, which claim to do deep black, better than CRT response time and near CRT viewing angles.
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Well, the viewing angles on my LCD TV are fine. No different to a good CRT in effect. It also has no noticable lag/ghosting. So it fills both criteria for me, and everyone else who's used it. Again, this is a budget set.

I assume the 2007WFP has relatively bad lag and ghosting (having used a 2407WFP extensively). This is not the norm anymore, there are plenty of LCDs without these issues. As I've said, I've used lots of sets with 0% noticable lag and ghosting. I agree that if you filmed the screen with a video camera you could notice those effects, but thankfully we watch with our eyes instead.

The reason I don't think it's a debate worth having is that I am not going to purchase a new screen anytime soon so it doesn't effect me. I still do not believe any edge a CRT has over a LCD is worth the decision to opt for one. Can we just agree to disagree as this is really getting boring now.
 
mrk said:
The black colour does not change but rather the IPS panel technology itself employs a golden like tinge on top to the whole screen on black backgrounds
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Doesn't matter what you call it or what the cause is, all that matters is that the colour you are seeing changes, it doesn't remain black. Really makes no difference whether you call it a viewing angle effect or the 'IPS effect' as it's commonly referred to (since it only happens on IPS), it's still there.
Duel said:
I still do not believe any edge a CRT has over a LCD is worth the decision to opt for one. Can we just agree to disagree as this is really getting boring now.
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It's boring because you're not reading what I'm saying and I'm having to repeat myself. I'll say it again - I wouldn't get a CRT myself and I wouldn't recommend one. I dunno where you got the idea that I said people should opt for CRTs. I'm just discussing the relative merits of the two technologies, which is what the thread is about afterall. You also have to realize that some people may be more apt at perceiving things like lag and ghosting than others.

Anyway, agreeing to disagree sounds good to me.
 
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My montior is a 19" Mitsubishi Pro930SB (CRT). Which I've had for over 3 years now. Personally I have no intention at this stage to switch to LCD. I have a large office and desk so foot print isn't an issue.

So far comments I have read and seen have put me off from converting to LCD. I suppose at this stage the only reason I would switch is if I had to free up desk space.
 
i have exactly the same monitor and its just awesome image quality compared to the benq 24"

its interesting u mention the nec as better than any crt in every area that matters.

im tempted to see if i can order one but then again its a bold statement and im not sure it would be anywhere near this crt for my eyes. i will research on it later though and consider it. i dont care about blurring i could live with it. viewing angles? i sit right in front of the pc. its image quality that counts and the benq make no mistake was awful compared to this crt.

i disliked brown/black the most especially on cod2 and from the screenshot i saw of a 2007wfp with high quality cam it was clear the colours just dont look right imho.
 
Rofflay said:
i have exactly the same monitor and its just awesome image quality compared to the benq 24"

its interesting u mention the nec as better than any crt in every area that matters.

im tempted to see if i can order one but then again its a bold statement and im not sure it would be anywhere near this crt for my eyes. i will research on it later though and consider it. i don't care about blurring i could live with it. viewing angles? i sit right in front of the pc. its image quality that counts and the benq make no mistake was awful compared to this crt.

i disliked brown/black the most especially on cod2 and from the screenshot i saw of a 2007wfp with high quality cam it was clear the colours just dont look right imho.
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What screenshot can you link to it? if it's a digital photo of the TFT playing COD2 then did the photographer set the white balance on the camera manually instead of leaving it on auto then plonking the photo online? I'm betting no because if you don't adjust the WB on a digital camera properly and manually the colours will come out inaccurate.

I've completed COD 2 and saw no colour problems at all and all the photos I have taken have been calibrated on camera with the this in mind.

Also you do realise COD2 is actually made using faded and washed out colours to begin with since it's a world war game.... Overall the Dell 2007WFP is far better than any other competing consumer TFT out there and the only one that gets the same level of colour quality is the NEC 20" IPS model as would be expected. I'm not saying that just because I have the screen, I'm saying it because that's why I bought it after having a few different brands before it and also having other 22" and 20" new tfts in the house to compare with as well as a Dell and LG trinitron flat tube CRT.

There is no two debates about this, IPS is better than TN or MVA in every area bar the slight extra cost of the screen and that's been proven by users and reviewers in magazines and on review sites time and time again with proper videos and photos yet people still debate it!!!

Edit* I decided to do a video anyway with a image quality reference photo
 
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Excuse the quality of photos they're from my mobile, but-

http://www.sbdev.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/dell1.jpg
http://www.sbdev.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/dell2.jpg
http://www.sbdev.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/dell3.jpg
http://www.sbdev.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/dell4.jpg

Of course it's not quite that bad in reality, and in the first one the picture didn't look blue like that (the desktop is actually plain black) but the other three shots do show the 'IPS effect'. Of course with a nice picture on screen you don't notice it as much, but if that picture has any dark colours in it, you do see them go orange, and indeed I can see the black parts of the picture you're using in that video going orange as you move the camera above the screen mrk.
 
fish99 said:
Excuse the quality of photos they're from my mobile, but-

http://www.sbdev.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/dell1.jpg
http://www.sbdev.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/dell2.jpg
http://www.sbdev.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/dell3.jpg
http://www.sbdev.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/dell4.jpg

Of course it's not quite that bad in reality, and in the first one the picture didn't look blue like that (the desktop is actually plain black) but the other three shots do show the 'IPS effect'. Of course with a nice picture on screen you don't notice it as much, but if that picture has any dark colours in it, you do see them go orange, and indeed I can see the black parts of the picture you're using in that video going orange as you move the camera above the screen mrk.
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Yup that's the way ips panels work (my video) but your photos look quite overexposed though because none of my 2007WFPs are anywhere near that level of "Glow" as your pics show (see below)

http://robbiekhan.co.uk/root/photos/room_gear/pc_tft_Dell2007WFP/1080P.jpg
http://robbiekhan.co.uk/root/photos/room_gear/pc_tft_Dell2007WFP/angles.jpg
http://robbiekhan.co.uk/root/photos/room_gear/pc_tft_Dell2007WFP/colours_autumn.jpg
http://robbiekhan.co.uk/root/photos/room_gear/pc_tft_Dell2007WFP/colours_black.jpg
http://robbiekhan.co.uk/root/photos/room_gear/pc_tft_Dell2007WFP/game_darkgame.jpg
http://robbiekhan.co.uk/root/photos/room_gear/pc_tft_Dell2007WFP/uniformness.jpg
http://robbiekhan.co.uk/root/photos/room_gear/pc_tft_Dell2007WFP/vs_Laptop.jpg

On mine the black does not go orange but the top layer of the ips panel covers the black area , it moves around the whole screen as you move around but only at the extremer angle if you did the same on a TN panel the screen would just go white or pale on the darker areas where the backlight can be seen and where the viewing angle limitations are reached - on the dell the colours remain constant as you can see you only notice the ips tinging on black areas as you move to the extreme angles over those black areas. - this is not an issue at all and easily becomes invisible after a few weeks much the same way you become used to a "TFT" over a CRT after making the first switch.
 
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mrk said:
Yup that's the way ips panels work (my video) but your photos look quite overexposed though because none of my 2007WFPs are anywhere near that level of "Glow" as your pics show.
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That's just my mobile, it didn't look that bad in reality. Exposure was on default btw. The shots do show roughly what happens though. If you were to film that video of yours again but with the screen showing black it would look roughly the same as my shots (except for the head on blue shot which was just weird since the screen was showing black to my eyes). In fact I seem to remember you posting such a video focusing on the IPS effect when you first got your 2007WFP.

It really doesn't matter whether it's caused by the top layer, the middle layer, some coating, light refracting from venus, or whatever, what matters is that it happens. You should be looking at black but it's gone all orange or blue. Why it happens really is a side debate. The fact is the CRTs I've used didn't do it, and in my opinion it limits the useable viewing angles, therefore I don't think it's an unreasonable statement to say that a CRT holds it's colour, especially dark colours, at wide viewing angles better than the 2007WFP. To deny that is to deny reality :D

I can also sometimes see a hint of the orange in the bottom left/right corners even when sitting head on.

It's a rather pointless debate anyway because I agree with you that the 2007 is as good an LCD as money can buy, and none of the minor issues it has bother me (except maybe black depth and then only rarely). There's also no way I would swap my 2007 for a CRT.
 
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I agree with you that the 2007 is as good an LCD as money can buy, and none of the minor issues it has bother me (except maybe black depth and then only rarely). There's also no way I would swap my 2007 for a CRT.
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So to conclude,


It's Awesome
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:D
 
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