Carrick Out?

[mid_gen]

I would say that hes clearly not good enough currently. Never looked like he was ready when he did get some game time for us and the fact hes not playing on loan isn't a ringing endorsement that we should be giving him game time here.

I'm not sure what bench-warming in the Dutch league is going to do to improve the lad. Better back in the youth setup getting match time.

 

[fez]

I'm not sure what bench-warming in the Dutch league is going to do to improve the lad. Better back in the youth setup getting match time.

Oh I'm not suggesting thats helping him but your suggestion seemed to be to bring him back because we need a striker. Throwing him into this mess wouldn't help anyone and would likely do more harm than good.

The manager just needs to play a false 9 and adapt until we get Sesko back or someone else in in January.

 

[C Kent]

Was just curious to see how Obi has been getting with his loan move. Turns out he's just been bench-warming and getting the odd minute.

What a total and utter waste of time. Better have him getting some time off the bench in the PL given we're crying out for a 9.

If he can't even get off the bench and get game time for willem in the Dutch league he's going to be no good for you lot in the prem

 

[adam cool dude]

The only time I can remember anything like this was when Leicester didn't sack Brendan Rogers because they couldn't afford to do it. The results were equally as bad. What I am seeing here is the same with Carrick. Sacking managers it is an instant payout plus whatever they need to pay to get a new manager in vs installments of transfer fees.

Manchester United is basically the same as someone on a council estate with 2 maxed out credit cards and a Iphone on Klarna. One big bill and they are buggered.

 

[Robbo]

If we honestly can’t afford £10-20m to sack and replace him I would be shocked. We may as well give up now!

Despite our dodgy finances that’s a fairly low sum in the grand scheme of things, it’s more likely Ratcliffe is just being a miser as usual.

 

[fez]

Sacking managers it is an instant payout plus whatever they need to pay to get a new manager in vs installments of transfer fees.

The club has enough cash to fork out £20m+ if thats what it takes. To suggest otherwise is madness. Even if you spread that cost for players over 5 years, thats £100m on transfer and we always spend at least that each summer, usually double. Thats ignoring the very obvious point that not sacking the manager will cost far more than that in lost prize money. The cost of that could easily exceed £30m just for this season and thats ignoring the loss of the potential huge amount from missing CL next season.

If we honestly can’t afford £10-20m to sack and replace him I would be shocked. We may as well give up now!

Despite our dodgy finances that’s a fairly low sum in the grand scheme of things, it’s more likely Ratcliffe is just being a miser as usual.

Of course we can afford it and its likely that Carricks survival has absolutely nothing to do with money. He will be sacked. He will get a payout. Its not avoiding anything on Carricks side and they aren't going to be picking which manager to go for over a few million compensation if they really want manager X.

 

[booyaka]

If we honestly can’t afford £10-20m to sack and replace him I would be shocked. We may as well give up now!

Despite our dodgy finances that’s a fairly low sum in the grand scheme of things, it’s more likely Ratcliffe is just being a miser as usual.

surely no way Carrick has a contract worth that much....

 

[adam cool dude]

The club has enough cash to fork out £20m+ if thats what it takes. To suggest otherwise is madness. Even if you spread that cost for players over 5 years, thats £100m on transfer and we always spend at least that each summer, usually double. Thats ignoring the very obvious point that not sacking the manager will cost far more than that in lost prize money. The cost of that could easily exceed £30m just for this season and thats ignoring the loss of the potential huge amount from missing CL next season.



Of course we can afford it and its likely that Carricks survival has absolutely nothing to do with money. He will be sacked. He will get a payout. Its not avoiding anything on Carricks side and they aren't going to be picking which manager to go for over a few million compensation if they really want manager X.

I don't think it works like that with the financial rules though?

I am pretty sure we didn't spend in the summer because we couldn't offload Rashford. We are skint.

 

[fez]

surely no way Carrick has a contract worth that much....

Apparently its £4-5m/year

 

[Freddie1980]

At some point the Utd board will need to make a stand and start backing a manager instead of bowing to player power. When Artea took over at Arsenal he ended up in a slump similar to Utd, the board stuck with him and at the end of the season they got rid of the toxic rubbish and dead wood (Ozil, Sokratis and Shkodran) and rebuilt over the next few years and look at where they are now.

 

[Converge]

Apparently its £4-5m/year

Well they had to fight to keep him, everyone was desperate for him to stay…

 

[fez]

At some point the Utd board will need to make a stand and start backing a manager instead of bowing to player power. When Artea took over at Arsenal he ended up in a slump similar to Utd, the board stuck with him and at the end of the season they got rid of the toxic rubbish and dead wood (Ozil, Sokratis and Shkodran) and rebuilt over the next few years and look at where they are now.

Common sense dictates you do that with a manager who isn't **** though. Part of the reason United are in such a mess right now is Carrick. Hes a poor manager which is exacerbating the already present issues.

 

[Robbo]

In modern football, is there really much evidence that backing a manger through thick and thin really works out in the long run. They have to show something. All Carrick has shown, since being made permanent manager, is that he's taking us to the Championship, where he also failed. Rejoice.

 

[fez]

In modern football, is there really much evidence that backing a manger through thick and thin really works out in the long run. They have to show something. All Carrick has shown, since being made permanent manager, is that he's taking us to the Championship, where he also failed. Rejoice.

None I would imagine. I reckon that if you checked the stats for managers, they almost never miraculously turn results around after a long period of poor results and the managers who get a long time either achieve relatively consistent results or showed steady improvement over time (like Arteta).

Outside of purely looking at data, I would guess that if you spoke to the people in charge of these teams and asked them why they stuck with their manager it would be because the data backed up the idea the manager was adding value and improving.

 

[chrismscotland]

I am in no way a Manchester United fan. However, it's impossible to ignore the drama of what goes on there.

It just seems that pretty much since the Glazers took over, things behind the scenes have been a mess. This has been especially true since Fergie retired and was no longer that single dominating figure behind the scenes as well.

It doesn't seem like Ratcliffe coming in is really making any difference. It was never necessarily going to be a quick fix, but there doesn't seem to be anybody who seems to think that him and the people he brought in have made a positive change to the club. Carrick is going to be the one who gets it in the neck and ultimately will probably carry the can for it. It doesn't really feel like it matters who they bring in to replace him, Eddie Howe, Julian Nagelsmann, Conte, George Graham.. until the off-field things are sorted, it's not going to make any difference.

 

[adam cool dude]

I am in no way a Manchester United fan. However, it's impossible to ignore the drama of what goes on there.

It just seems that pretty much since the Glazers took over, things behind the scenes have been a mess. This has been especially true since Fergie retired and was no longer that single dominating figure behind the scenes as well.

It doesn't seem like Ratcliffe coming in is really making any difference. It was never necessarily going to be a quick fix, but there doesn't seem to be anybody who seems to think that him and the people he brought in have made a positive change to the club. Carrick is going to be the one who gets it in the neck and ultimately will probably carry the can for it. It doesn't really feel like it matters who they bring in to replace him, Eddie Howe, Julian Nagelsmann, Conte, George Graham.. until the off-field things are sorted, it's not going to make any difference.

The only way you will fix it is by having owners that actually want to invest their money into the club and not take it all out. Until that fundamentally changes we will be where we are indefinitely.

Man Utd were 50 million in debt when the glazers took over which was normal operating at the time.

alternate universe a) That means if the glazers didn't exist we could have spent 1.1 billion on the club over that time and still been in zero debt. That could have been a 100,000 seater stadium, most likely one of the best in the world and we could have still spent all that money on players that we did and be in a very good financial position.

alternate universe b) If the glazers actually had the idea of paying back the debt with the rates of the time it would have cost around 900 million and would have been paid off by now. They would have still been able to collect 300 million in dividends over that time which is a crazy amount of money which ever way you look at it. It is just pure greed on their behalf.

It is disgusting that it has been allowed to happen. Problem is this is rife all over business and governments have allowed it to happen. Just look at Woolworths, Morrisons etc etc. It is rife everywhere and Man Utd is just another one.

 

[Freddie1980]

Common sense dictates you do that with a manager who isn't **** though. Part of the reason United are in such a mess right now is Carrick. Hes a poor manager which is exacerbating the already present issues.

Carrick had an excellent record at the end of last season, he beat Liverpool, City and Arsenal, lifted Utd's depression it has under Amorin and got them back into the champions League but now all of the sudden he:'s become a bad coach over night?

Whatever the issue is a Utd it's certainly not limited to the first team coach, Amorin, Solskjaer, Mourinho, Moyes, ten Hag, van Gaal..... you've had decent to excellent coaches since Ferguson but they've all had failed. There are a few underlying issues but the major one that stands out to me is looking at rivals and who they are signing. Players like Rice, Harland, Rogers and Anderson, in years gone by at least two or three of them would have been going to Utd but now management allows your rivals to snap them up.

 

[Calpol]

The players need a disciplinarian who the owners back. It no coincidence the last time they had reasonable success was after Jose had beaten them into shape and then ole took over to put some fun back. Effectively ole rode the coat tails of what Jose had instilled into them until the do what you want and have fun attitude became too much and they forgot what was drilled into the team/players.

I think they have tried all ways. Ten Hag and Amorim were tough. Certainly not weak or too pally with the players. They made some big and unpopular calls and really tried to raise standards.I still think Amorim deserved longer

I can't say I understand people who are still wondering whether Carrick is a good coach or not. If you ignore his name and look at his credentials, he looks like a Championship level manager, fairly early in his career, who ultimately struggled at his first job at Boro. Obviously his interim spell balances that a little bit, but there is plenty of evidence to suggest we were over-performing and got a bit fortunate. Solskjaer also did well under similar circumstances, is he suddenly now a great manager? Nope.

I think there is a world of difference between being a good coach, a great manager and someone who can successfully steer a club like Manchester United. I think he did ok in his first job. He narrowly missed promotion. 4th in his first season, 8th in the second and 10th in his final year. How many managers in the Championship get three seasons? I think it's credible without being outstanding. McKenna did better but went straight back down.

Most, if not all managers will have had good spells in their careers, it's how you build on it long term. Lampard is a good example, an esteemed midfielder turned manager - he had the opportunity at Chelsea and struggled, but has since done things the right way by proving himself at a lower level first.

Are you forgetting the failed stint at Everton? I would suggest he's not proved himself much better than Carrick at this stage. Although winning the Championship deserves some credit

It's also true that the people above Carrick are failing miserably as well - that much is obvious. The Chelsea game will be fascinating at least.

Yep - I'm sort of looking forward to it which is rare. I have a feeling we will win!

Was just curious to see how Obi has been getting with his loan move. Turns out he's just been bench-warming and getting the odd minute.

What a total and utter waste of time. Better have him getting some time off the bench in the PL given we're crying out for a 9.

It's hard to find a good loan for these kids. So many of them just can't break into men's football. it shows how hard it is to find a genuine prospect and puts into perspective just how amazing the 1992 class was. These kids have to learn resilience and hopefully the lad is getting something out of it. to be a striker in the EPL at a young age is incredibly tough.

Tomorrow will be interesting. Chelsea are weakened with injuries have patchy form and ship quite a lot of goals. It's a good time to play them. Unfortunately we don't even look like a Championship side in the last few games.

 

[Vandle]

Carrick had an excellent record at the end of last season, he beat Liverpool, City and Arsenal, lifted Utd's depression it has under Amorin and got them back into the champions League but now all of the sudden he:'s become a bad coach over night?

Whatever the issue is a Utd it's certainly not limited to the first team coach, Amorin, Solskjaer, Mourinho, Moyes, ten Hag, van Gaal..... you've had decent to excellent coaches since Ferguson but they've all had failed. There are a few underlying issues but the major one that stands out to me is looking at rivals and who they are signing. Players like Rice, Harland, Rogers and Anderson, in years gone by at least two or three of them would have been going to Utd but now management allows your rivals to snap them up.

Yeah player recruitment is one of the starkest things to me about Man Utd these days. That was something they were so good at, brining in players and getting good seasons out of them before knowing exactly when to let them go.
The best players just aren’t choosing them and the players they have they often overpay for then keep them beyond the sell by date. Imagine they held a fire sale tomorrow, how many players are they going to turn a profit on? If they happen to stick with Carrick then you’d have to think both Martinez and Bruno will be out the door for a relative pittance if they stay in Europe. That’s a World Cup winner and last years voted no 1 premier league player.